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Home      Reply		Viewed: 456 -- Replies: 33
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Posted	advice!
22-02-2006 19:29 by luke	right i want advice and honest advice, i want to keep fish and corals, at the moment i have a rio 240 with the internal filter a red sea prism skimmer, a eheim external canister with media in and a aqua-one canister with media and filter sponges also bio balls and a 25w vecton sterilizer,i am using zoo med reef sun and ocean sun t8's i have a ro unit i use for water changes but the water i started with in the tank was tap water, at the monent i have 6 clowns and 5 chromis and a toadstool coral if it ent dead, but i cant help feeling that i should of gone with live rock but the bloke at my local shop said that this way was better, ive seen some of the magnificent displays that can be achieved with live rock and corals and i want my tank to be like it, any advice or comments would be gratefull
22-02-2006 19:36 by BradsDad	Hi Luke, my opinion is that you really need some live rock in there to help keep your water stable. I would also consider changing your lights as T8's not really upto keeping corals. Just my opinion - others may disagree.
22-02-2006 19:50 by Dagda	BradsDads Right, live rock is the best filter and you need to upgrade lights T8s are not strong enough for corals What are you using to remove nitrate ? because it sounds to me like you have a nitrate factory
22-02-2006 20:00 by BradsDad	Can you post you water parameters - Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate. If your tank hasn't been setup long and you're not using live rock you may be still cycling.
22-02-2006 20:44 by k.o.d	Hi Luke We are on bigger reef number two and live rock is definately the way to go IMO especially if you want corals as well. T5's are a must for soft corals and really halides for hard corals if you want to go down that route. Also you will need some powerheads to push the water through the rock and the corals like the flow - it helps to feed them. Personally I wouldnt have started with tap water so you need to get a decent test kit and test your water NOW, it may be that you will have to do several water changes to bring them into the right parameters. I could keep going but I will stop there for the moment, you may have problems with that many clowns though as they find their owm territory. Kate
22-02-2006 22:21 by luke	right the water tests are as follwows, ph 8.2, ammonia 0 nitrite 0 nitrate 10
22-02-2006 22:22 by luke	but what could i do now as i have just spent loads of money on filters would i have to remove them if i went for the live rock option also what about the fish? i think some t5's are definitaerly on top of my buy list
22-02-2006 22:58 by drummerduck	Luke have you just bought loads of ocean rock?
23-02-2006 09:18 by Alan	This is what I would do if I was in your place Luke. Keep the canisters these provide valuable circulation but you don't want the biological media in them. Instead of the biological media being in the canisters you need to use about 25 kilos of live rock. I would put a phosphate remover in one canister and carbon in the other. The rio has 2 T8 tubes I think don't rip this lighting out instead add 2 T5 tubes to the tank. The T5's should be one marine white and one marine blue the same with the T8's this should be sufficient with the depth of the tank and the corals you are keeping. In addition to the circulation provided by the canisters I would suggest you buy a seio pump these are similar in operation to tunze turbelle's but are much cheaper the smalleszt seio should be sufficient but you need to make that decision I would aim for a minimum tank turn over of 20 times per hour. You water tests do not point to any problems so I would suspect it is lighting. How often do you carry out water changes and what salt do you use and do you have much in the way of coralline algae growth. It maybe that the calcium levels are depleted. I would suggest you may need to change the salt you use go for either reef crystals or the new TMC pro reef I have had good results with both when compared with kent marine. Also what is the salinity of the water do you measure using a refractometer or a hydrometer if you use a hydrometer I would suggest you get a refractometer £40 from www.stm-shop.co.uk they also sell some of the best live rock in the country. Don't remove the media from you canisters until you have got the live rock. I would also suggest that a future mod maybe to put an eco system sump on the tank you can get hang on ones this would be very beneficial for the tank it acts as a continual source of food for the tank if it is big enough you may be able to remove the skimmer as well. You will then have a far larger level of diversity in your tank this aids in lkeeping fish such as mandarins and anthias which are trickle feeders mandarins in particular are difficult to feed frozen foods as they finds it difficult to compete with other fish. Hope this helps.
23-02-2006 18:11 by drummerduck	Alan where can you buy the eco system, the hang on type? cheers dude, DD
24-02-2006 08:15 by Alan	I can't remember where I have seen it I wouldn't have thought it was big enough to replace a skimmer entirely. You could try www.paraquatics.co.uk
24-02-2006 08:52 by luke	right so how do i go about doin what u said alan im thinkin of gettin as reef rack so how much live rock etc what do i put in the canisters and where do i place the seio pumps, the salt i am using is tmc seasalt. and i am using a hydrometer, could u tell me exactly where to place thing etc and how to go about doin it
24-02-2006 10:01 by Alan	Rightly firstly live rock should equate to at least 1 kilo for every 2 imperial gallons or more. Media in the canisters should be something like rowaphos in one and carbon in the other you won't need to fill them with the stuff and if you did it would cost you a small fortune. The seio if you do get one or 2 of these should go in the back top corners and directed diagnally across the tank these pumps shift enough water so that directing them against the live rock should not be necessary. I would have the outlets from the canister just going out behind the live rock at the base of the formation just to minimise low flow in that area. Live rock should be arranged so water can freely flow around it so when you stack it leave a gap between each peace you lie on the bottom so the biggest fsh you intend to keep could fit through the gap and as you pile the rock up keep this in mind. You could use a racking system I would say in larger tanks it is definately worth doing but in smaller tanks such as yours it shouldn't be necessary. You could of course put all the rock on a raised platform this gives a large open area below the rock and if you have the flow right you will get no detritus on the bottom plus any grazers you have will be able to munch across the whole base. Down side of this is if a fish pegs it it will be hard to get the thing out I had this problem with a tang couldn't get it out just added loads of hermits and let them get on with it and did a lot of water changes lost a few other fish in the process but there was nothing I could do to get the fish out. Then you have to make a choice skimmer or eco system sump I prefer the eco system sump as this will promote plankton as opposed to removing it as a skimmer would but it needs to be large enough to have quite a large area for algae to grow as it is the caulerpa algae that does the job of the skimmer the sump would need a bed of miracle mud as well this provides all the minerals the caulerpa need equally the sump would need to be lit 24 hours a day otherwise the caulerpa can turn nasty and toxic. Incidentally if you go for the full on reef rack I would put a seio underneath the rack you must be able to access the seio though for maintenance. This will maximise flow around the live rock and enable the maximum possible bio capacity to be achieved from the rock.
24-02-2006 10:03 by Alan	Is the TMC salt you are using proreef if not try this salt instead or alternatively reef crystals these are both enriched with calcium and magnesium.
24-02-2006 10:04 by Alan	I would also recommend replacing the hydrometer with a refractometer at some point hydrometers are notoriously unreliable a refractometer can be bought from www.stm-shop.co.uk for about £40.
24-02-2006 10:10 by Alan	Incidentally I would run with the biological media in the canister and the live rock for about a week before gradually removing the media in the canisters this will be less of a shock on the tank. Once all the media has been removed from the canister replace it with rowaphos or phas ban and carbon. Incidentally what is you phosphate reading. This may also be a cause of problems with your toadstool coral. Phosphates I believe inhibit the deposition of calcium within coral skeleton.
24-02-2006 10:19 by luke	ok thatnks mate so in the canisters i would just have rowaphos in 1 and carbon in the other and nothing else? i really appreciate the advice mate, i think i will stick with the skimmer at the monent, if i email u a pic of what i plan to do do u think u could advise me on your opinions of that
24-02-2006 10:24 by Alan	Just post on here you will get the opinions of more people then you ewill get more of a balanced view I'm a bit eco mad there are some technical nuts on here to never use the advice from one go for the many and make a decision on the basis of the veiw of a large number of people always the best thing to do.
24-02-2006 10:38 by luke	ok mate i should be able to post it on here as soon as my pc is fixed which should be later today
24-02-2006 18:45 by k.o.d	All good advice Luke! personally though I wouldnt use carbon as it can leach back into the water once it has become saturated, and unless you continually test your water you will not see the effects until it is causing problems. We use the system with our canisters in just the way that Alan has suggested, all that is in there is rowaphos and it helps with the turnover. My reef is only 75 Imperial gallons so we dont have any racking, personally I prefer it as I have been able to make lots of caves for the fish which are more timid, and it allows the algae to grow in more places for the tangs. We have a skimmer as our bracing bars from all the hang off eco sumps we have seen have made it impossible to fit but Alan if you have any ideas then please share We use a Deltec MCE 600 which is absolutely superb along with seio pumps (try www.atlantisaquatics.co.uk) they have them at a 10% discount at the moment and delivery is very good. Kate
24-02-2006 18:53 by luke	kod u couldt post a pic of ur tank could u i need ideas on aquascaping
24-02-2006 20:07 by luke	or if anyone else has any ideas about aquascaping tell me about it or pics of there tanks
25-02-2006 09:04 by luke	right then ive been lookin at these tell me what u think, seio super flow 620 2400lph ill get 2 of these, arcadia t5 i bar direct replacement for the juwel lights, and some deep purple fiji live rock?
26-02-2006 18:45 by k.o.d	Sorry Luke had missed this one here ya go our reef. its only been up and running about 8 months so there is still some way to go, but since we have put the seio pumps in the corals have really come out. Will post some more pics later. Kate
26-02-2006 19:20 by luke	very nice indeed
26-02-2006 22:06 by deejdave	Hi there mate, a retailer myself but been keeping marines for nearly 20 years. KEEP YOUR EXTERNALS running with the full complement of media that they came with. external filters are quite stable compared to live rock etc. Gradually add pieces of matured live rock to your existing set up. your externals will continue to mature up as long as you dont clean them out too much and the gradual increase of live rock will help with the biological filtration. As already mentioned, carbon is ok but if u do not take it out again quite quickly it can leach toxins back in to the system and its really hard to tell when its full up/used up so can be quite wasteful. I would seriously consider getting a better skimmer at some point too, maybe a deltec. The red seas prisms are ok for a while but tend to become a but intermittent, IE work when they feel like it after a while. With regard to ur lighting, keep ur existing lights and just add some t5's. in the ratio 3 whites to one blue (this has been proven to be the best ratio for growing coral!) hope it works out for you1 Dave. (PS feel free to email me if u have any Q's, deejdave@aol.com)
26-02-2006 22:09 by deejdave	PS the hang on eco sumps are a pain in the ass & quite expensive, but if ur interested "underworld" do some, ur local aquatic store should be able to help.
28-02-2006 19:16 by luke	what do u think of this only a rough sketch
28-02-2006 19:18 by luke	the big black thing on the right is the juwel filter, and there is a spray bar below the rocks on the right and a spray bar in the middle of the rocks on the left
01-03-2006 09:54 by Alan	Make sure you can get the spray bars out to clean them. With the juwel filter you can simply replace the media in there with some rowaphos and carbon, I should have stated the use of carbon more clearly earlier this should only go in for a few days and then be removed I would use it once a month for a few days just to polish the water. Rowaphos can stay in for longer. You will no need the canisters. Unless you want these as a means of boosting circulation if you have them already you may as well use them and it will be handy for running a UV. I would add a couple of either Tunze or seio pumpsone in each back top corner of the tank aimed diagnally and slightly down across the tank. The rock lay out is good be carefull with the risk of collapse though specifically with the large cave. As far as media in your canisters there are 2 schools of thought on this in my experience they produce to much nitrate and produce it to fast for the live rock to keep up with it. If you do run the system with live rock and biological media in the canisters watch the nitrate level you may have trouble keeping it below 25 ppm if you do have this problem the solution is to gradually remove the media from the canisters with the ultimate aim of the live rock carrying out all of the biological filtration. Equally if you do opt for media in the canisters don't solely rely on these canisters to do the job still stock with live rock to at least 1 kilo for every 2 gallons. The marine environment is very harsh on filters thats another bonus of the natural method there is less to wear out. All the best with the new set up when its up and running put some pickies on here.
01-03-2006 17:12 by luke	ok mate cheers ill definatley put 2 seio pumps in the corners and i aim to hopefully remove the media from the cannisters but use them for circulation, but im still not sure about lighting
01-03-2006 22:10 by luke	also i was thinkin bout gettin my live rock from stm-shop.co.uk the deep purple fiji rock, would this be ok to add and also should i add it gradually? and should i put it straight on the sand or use an egg crate method
02-03-2006 08:55 by Alan	Straight on the sand should be fine the stm stuff is probably amongst the best in the country. The rock is well cured so I would put it straight in if you can afford to or alternatively put it in in batches of 10 kilos. There are advantages to egg crate but it is not necessary if circulation is high. If you are going to just keep fish lighting is not critical so the 2 T8's will be fine however if you want to keep some easy corals you will need to add some additional lighting such T5's or if you can find away to use it on the tank metal halides. You need to decide exactly what you are going to keep before deciding on lighting.
02-03-2006 11:17 by Alan	Luke for lighting look on the paraquatics website. Look under lighting you will see a link to lighting for juwel aquariums its basically the arcadia I bar the 54 watt one is the one you need for the rio 400 I think £109 minus tubes and reflectors. I would expect 2 T5's plus the 2 T8's would be sufficient if not replace the T8's with another T5 I bar. I used to keep softies under 5 T8's succesfully so I would expect them to be fine under 2 T5's and 2 T8's. http://www.paraquatics.co.uk/paraquatics%20online.html Take a look at the customr tanks as well this will give you an idea of what can be achieved with various levels of lighting and with the eco system methods. http://www.paraquatics.co.uk/customerstanks.htm

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