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| Posted | Unusual occurence with marine white spot cryptocaryon |
| 20-04-2006 11:17 by Alan |
I have a powder blue tang with white spot (shock horror I hear you say) this fact in itself is not surprising.
The fish is absolutely covered but it is not in the slightest bit bothered has any one else experienced this? It's not even flicking but I can see where the parasites have burrowed into the fish prior to the cyst stage appearing as the fish is all lumpy (not very nice). I have tried oodinex which I would have previously recommended as in the past I have had good results with it but all to no avail. In addition I have found that it was detrimental to my sea urchin that funnily enough has never been bothered by this remedy before, therefore I quickly removed it from the tank via skimming and the UV being turned back on. I'm interested to know if any one has tried the reduced sg method succesfully, it was recently recommended in a pfk and advocated reducing the salinity to 1.014-1.015 for a period of 6 weeks at least this was on a reef tank. I discussed this with my LFS and they agreed it would work but felt going no lower than 1.017 in a reef is best. Just interested in other people experience with this really, I have also heard a level of 1.010 - 1.012 being recommended on fish only systems. I will be reducing my salinity at the weekend and if no one else has tried this I will post a weekly update of how it is going. I'm expecting problems with depleted calcium and alkalinity as well as an unstable ph. |
| 20-04-2006 11:52 by Alan |
This is my starting point:
sg 1.026 measured using a refractometer binned the hydrometer months ago complete load of inaccurate rubbish. Calcium 480 ppm salifert kit PH (tests kit is rubbish its off the scale though so I'm guessing around 8.6 but I think the test kit is wrong so I ignore it and only test to see if the test kit is still rubbish really pointless exercise its a nutrafin kit) Alkalinity haven't tested it for years Phosphate 0.03ppm (don't trust the kit though no matter what it always gives this reading, this is a sera kit). Nitrate last time I tested it nitrate was at zero don't believe it as I got the same result on a heavily stocked freshwater tank (the sera kit I used was suitable for fresh and marine water) Tetra kit gave me a reading of 12.5-25 mg/l don't believe it though as tetra kits in my experience read to high and in one case a tetra kit told me my water was acidic and the same kit in the shop said alkali incidentally I have found tetra kits will read 12-5-25 on my tap water that I know contains less than 7 mg/l nitrate as this was a lab result as carried out by my water supplier as tested at source after water treatment. I have had really bad experiences with test kits I use them as a rough guide all they can tell you in my view is extremes and not always the right ones. Any way rant over above are my rough parameters I would recommend if you can afford them go for electronic meters chemical test kits are a waste of money. Those results I believe to be accurate are the salinity as this was measured using a refractometer and the calcium this was a chemical test kit but I have found more consistant results with these and I have also found they show the expected trends if tests are carried out just after a water change and just before i.e. a reducing calcium content. The ph I will monitor for consistency of colour if it starts to go to a more green colour instead of the purple which is off the scale as the scale stops at a kind of greeny blue I will add a buffer made by seachem that adjusts to a ph of 8.3 and also boosts trace elements of magnesium and strontium and the like. I also test magnesium and try to maintain a constant level of about 1500 ppm this helps stabalise calcium and ph. In summary these are my parameters: sg 1.026 calcium 480 ppm magnesium 1500 ppm ph over 8.6 (don't believe it though as I add no buffer and use reef crystals) Phosphates 0.03ppm I will post any detrimental effects on livestock. My main concern is the effect on caulerpa as this is a significant part of my filtration system. I am also feeding my fish a vitaminj enriched diet I am giving the totalnutrition food additive ago and feeding my fish twice a day. Fish include: The infected powder blue tang no other fish are effected. Pair of tomato clown TMC tank bred. Coral beauty that is indestructable it has survived all of my disaster with marine keeping. Humbug damsel also indestructable. |
| 20-04-2006 12:04 by drummerduck |
Alan what electronic devices are avaliable? whats the cost? and what do you recommend?
many thanks, DD  |
| 20-04-2006 12:34 by Alan |
I can't afford any of the electronic devices myself I believe they cost over £100 each and all can be rigged up to a fish tank computer that controls dosing and can even be linked into a home pc or set up to send you a text message if something goes t*ts up. If I had several thousand pounds to spend I would get a set up like this it would save spending hours every week testing and making up various chemicals.
I have never used them but I am aware of the need to regularly recalibrate them using various premixed liquids with known concentrations the level of accuracy goes way beyond that achievable with chemical test kits. |
| 20-04-2006 13:38 by samantha |
catch the fish, put him in his own aquarium, gradually lower the salinity to 1.010 to reduce the stress for the fish. then you can use a copper medication (as you seem to say your main tank is reef).
i would recommend that all marine keepers always have a small tank continually running, ready for emergencies. |
| 20-04-2006 14:45 by Alan |
Easy if you have the dosh samantha but removal of the fish from the main tank will not deal with the problem in the reef. It seems the fish I have in there that are apparently uneffected may actually be carriers so to speak their defences being able to keep most at bay but the white spot problem remains present at a very low level just ticking over.
The action of reducing the salinity to 1.010 would mitigate any need for the medication as cryptocaryon are a relatively small organism they do not seem able to tolerate the osmotic change as well as higher organisms hence the effect of long term reduction in salinity as described above. I expect it is similar in effect to the long term use of salt in freshwater aquaria and the ability at certain levels to iradicate whitespot in the freshwater environment. My research point to the salinity drop in a reef aquaria to be effective and providing the salinity is adjusted carefully it is supposedly not harmful to inverts over the 6 week period although I do expect a knock on effect to be present in the biodiversity within the tank with regards to micro organisms initially I will drop the salinity to 1.017 to see if any beneficial result are seen and over a week or so I will drop it further to 1.015. I have also found through research that this can be beneficial to diseased corals presumably the organisms attacking the corals being lower life forms are not able to with stand the osmotic shift as well as the corals. I am more concerned on the potential effects on the worm population but considering the environment they live in in a DSB I suspect they are quite tolerant of extreme environments I am also a little concerned about my echinoderm population but hopefully these will be fine with the gradual shift in salinity I expect many that are in the hobby can also be found in estuaries but obviously I have no evidence for this it is purely speculation. |
| 20-04-2006 16:18 by yanton |
i have found with marines that some strains of whitespot seem to be resistant to lower salinity.
i also ran a spare isolation tank. you only need a bare aquarium, heater stat and sponge filter. |
| 20-04-2006 18:53 by tommy |
i had the same problem with my powder blue ... if it dose not bother him leave him 4 a few days i made the mistake by movinf him which put more stress on the fish . and then 2 days later he died .. the powder blue tang is very suseptable to whitespot |
| 21-04-2006 22:34 by Willuk |
Very strange Alan, I only bought my powder blue 2 weeks ago, and he looked perfectly healthy. Then 3 days later he was covered in white spot. However he seems perfectly happy. Feeding ok and no apparent distress. So I'm very keen to see what you do to cure. Not sure if reducing saltinity is a good idea. That may put the rest of the reef under stress. Would it not be worth asking your LFs if they can hold ya fish until cured...
One thing though not sure if I would recommend a powder blue! Also I'm setting up a very basic 22 gallon tank with basic filtration. I will use this as a hospital tank so I can use copper medication. The whole set-up brand new with tank was £70 so may be an idea to go down that route. |
| 24-04-2006 09:13 by Alan |
I have kept a powder blue in a reef no problems before, I have a feeling it is ticking over in my reef at a low level so this was an inevitable problem any way powder blue or not.
So far powder blue has shown a dramatic reduction in cryptocaryon all of the corals have shrunk but seem to be okay and all of the mobile inverts are uneffected that includes a host anemone. My female tomato clown has a few spots now but that is no surprise really as it was bound to effect other fish soon. I have made the decision to abondon the reduced salinity method if the crytocaryon gets worse at this stage that is not the case however if it does get worse the salinity will be increased from 1.016 to 1.027 over a few days and I will dig an old tank out of my parents and set this up as a new home for all the fish while the reef will be left fish free for at least 2 months this should eradicate the white spot in the reef whilst I will be able to use a more effective remedy on the fish. As far as the DSB and caulerpa go they are not at all fussed. I may be asking for people experiences of what are the most effective methods of catching fish in a reef in the not to distant future! |
| 24-04-2006 10:53 by Alan |
For those that are interested in this thread I have found a bit of info on salt and treating parasites on the pfk website.
Its a straight copy and paste jobby basically it confirms my view that freshwater dips with cryptocaryon are pointless as the parasite is protected by the fishes tissue, it also confirms that the theront stage is hypo saline sensitive and a salinity of less than 25 ppt will kill the theront stage. Does this work the other way round? Can lowering the salinity in a marine tank eradicate parasites? Yes, this may work for some marine parasites, but not for all of them, including marine whitespot, contrary to popular belief among those in the marine community! Dr Peter Burgess, who holds a doctorate on this very subject, told us: "My friend Dr Angelo Colorni in Israel (another Cryptocaryon fanatic, like me!) found that freshwater dips, even long ones, for up to 18 hours, did not prevent development of the parasites in the fish's skin. I guess the skin partly protects the parasites from hypo-salinity effects. "Colorni found that the free-living infective (theront) stage of Cryptocaryon was hypo-saline sensitive, being killed at salinities below 25 parts per thousand. Of course, most other common skin parasites live on the skin surface, not beneath it, as in ich/crypto, so are more vulnerable to low salinities." |
| 25-04-2006 08:11 by Alan |
Just to let you know I have abandoned the hyposalinity treatment it is effective but at to greater cost to inverts.
The powder blue is now clear of whitespot but I can guarantee it is still in the system so I will be setting up a quarantine tank to move all the fish to for at least 6 weeks this will eradicate the spot in the reef and I will be able to use a more effective remedy on the fish. In conclusion I would use hypo salinity again but only on a fish only system as it is extremely detrimental to inverts however the following were not bothered: Sea urchin Blue linkia Sandsifting starfish Hermits Turbos Copepods worms Bubble tip anemone However all stationary inverts were bothered hence ceasing treatment, hopefully all will recover but only time will tell the majority are small frags the other is a pussey coral that is over 1.5 feet in diameter its not looking to happy but it has suffered far worse in the past so I am not to worried about this huge colony. I am going to try a reef safe remedy when I treat the fish in quarantine called ich attack this is a herbal remedy. Incidentally in my research I have found that ich is only viable in a closed system for around 11-12 months so in theory if your fish can ride it out for a year (not likely I know) the ich will go this is due to in breeding as the gene pool in a closed system is not large enough to be viable long term I would pressume the larger the tank though the longer it will take for this to happen and those tanks on a massive scale pressumably could contain a large enough population to be viable for several years thought it was interesting though. I have read that for fish only hyposalinity treatment going to 1.009 sg is the most effective means of eradicating ich it makes the little blighters blow up! Well not literally but their cells will burst. I would say taking it down to this level over about a week would be safe. The water would need to remain below 25 ppt salt for at least 6 weeks to be effective. |
| 25-04-2006 08:17 by Alan |
In short there is only one option as I see it now for getting spot out of a reef.
Initially set it up with all the live rock and gradually introduce all of the inverts you want. Then before adding any fish wait at least 2 months this will insure the reef is ich free. Then quarantine all new arrivals and I would recommend the quarantine for all new fish be carried out in a tank containing copper or at a low salinity for a period of at least 6 weeks prior to introduction into the reef display this is the only way to be certain the tank is clear of any parasites. I'm sure several people are thinking I told you so but I always think someone should give these various methods of treating ago and list their findings far to many people are content with recommending without giving things a go yes I wish I hadn't but at least some one else will hopefully not try this on a reef as I have done as a result of me posting this. |
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