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Posted	setting up marine.
12-05-2006 21:35 by tony mcculloch	I have decided to set up a marine tank as its always something ive shyed away from. Its going to be some time before I actualy manage to do this, but I have started to get the basic equipment.I have got a 48x18x18 tank, an eheim external filter and a protein skimmer. I cant explain what I want to do as I dont have a clue, but I have found a link which will give you some idea of what I would like to achieve in the long run. I have been looking at the price of live rock and it is a deffinate no no. could I just put in some normal rock and maybe a few pieces of living rock to start with, and what would be the best rock to use, tufa, ocean rock or volcanic rock. please dont baffle me with science as that is what put me off in the beggining. only looking for the basic info to start me off, and then hopefuly take it from there. cheers. http://www.guppiesforyuppies.co.za/uploads/BFA_Dsc03233.jpg
12-05-2006 21:45 by clownloachlady	wow with a tank looking like that i want a marine tank tooo!!!
12-05-2006 21:48 by frozenball	hi tony im doing the same thing and i was trying to find a cheap alteritive but i now have all of my equipment i am just saving for my live rock . I know you said that live rock is a no no but if you are willing to wait and save surly you would be able to buy some second hand . I think its almost the only way that you will get the affect that you have posted in that photo . Great photo though . as for waht to do you need to get the water and salt mixed put it in the tank and monitor the chemical changes within the water and wait for the water to level out ( cycling ) this takes from 4 - 8 weeks i am told so that will give you enough time to do some more reading . have a look at this link i started a couple of weeks ago it is full of information what you might find usful http://www.aquarist-classifieds.co.uk/forum/viewtopic_3480.php
12-05-2006 21:55 by wayne	CYCLING A MARINE TANK , YOU CAN USE MOLLIES THAT WAS THE OLD WAY , NOWMOST PEOPLE USE DAMSELS OR CHROMIS , YOUR TANK WONT CYCLE WITHOUT FISH IN,
12-05-2006 22:01 by george	yes what he means is fishless cycling!
12-05-2006 22:09 by wayne	FISH LESS CYCLING? WHAT DOES THE BACTERIA LIVE ON THE WHAT DOES IT BREAK DOWN?
12-05-2006 23:02 by tony mcculloch	thanks for the replies, there exactly what i am after. Damsels are one thing that was suggested to cycle the tank, and then take them back as there too aggressive, but I am sure that I read somewere, that live rock could also be used to start the cycle, but not to put too much in at any one time, which suprises me as its sold by the 20kilo boxes. I wanted to know what rock to use as I got told that whatever was on the live rock would spread over the none live rock,(over time).
12-05-2006 23:08 by tony mcculloch	also, im not in any rush, I only want the one marine tank and would like to set it up as best as I can, so I dont suppose it would be a problem adding a couple of pieces at a time. I will read that link you have given frozenball. thank you
12-05-2006 23:46 by frozenball	sorry what i was refering to above was with live rock , was i wrong ? please tell me if so as i am almost ready to start mine off and if i need fish then so be it .
12-05-2006 23:58 by Willuk	As a general rule you need 1kg of live rock for every 2 gallons of water. Live rock is by far the best way forward in my opinion. It acts as a natural filter and absorbes allot of stuff. It also contains allot of good critters that help the water quality etc.. However its not really required in a fish only set-up but again preferable, but you wont be able to treat your fish within the main tank, with copper medication. Yes it is expensive but check ebay out every day and you will get some bargains, I ended paying around £275 for 55kg of rock which by the shops prices is a bargain as it could of cost anywhere fromm £550 to £650 depending where you get it from. BUT I have heard that the live rock from www.stm.co.uk is the business!!! I was lucky as all my rock is very good, its covered in the main in pink and looks really well.
13-05-2006 00:02 by tony mcculloch	the equipment I have got today is a red sea, berlin skimmer, 25-250 gallons triple pass (needs cleaning, if anyone can suggest how to) and also an eheim proffesional 2, 130 odd gallons an hour I believe, are these ok. my lfs and the guy I bought the equipment off, have both offered me cucled water, when I am ready.
13-05-2006 00:05 by Willuk	Tony my advice is to but an RO unit and supply your own water its cheaper than buying it and you control the quality! plus its on tap for water changes and emergiencies! go to www.roman.co.uk I think thats the link if not search for ROman!
13-05-2006 00:08 by tony mcculloch	sorry willuk, i meant it was for free, from there tanks, to get my tank cycled quicker. read your post, are you saying that live rock can be used to cycle a tank?
13-05-2006 08:58 by wayne	live rock will not cycle a tank , its a good filter for marine and probably the best you can get , coz its naturel but your filters need fish waste to start the nitrogen cycle , my advice would be get 3-4 chromis to start your tank they are nice looking fish and are peaceful ,unlike most of damsels ,even perc clowns are fine to cycle, as i said you can use normal tropical mollies as the are brackish water fish anyway , if your thinkingof ever having corals of one type or another then never use copper treatments in your main tank , if your think of buying 20 kg of live rock it will probably be uncured so an empty tank would be good , ASK ED ABOUT CURING i can get cheap corals and have a ro unit for sale if your interested , hope this helps
13-05-2006 10:18 by tony mcculloch	hi wayne. was up late scouring through all of your adds on ebay, yes I would be interested in the ro unit but I will have to wait a couple of weeks mate. I have read that you can keep mollies in a marine tank but dont think the wife will be happy if I pinch the mollies out of her community tank. to be honest, the only thing stopping me setting up now is that I need to build a cabinet for the tank. thanks wayne
14-05-2006 20:35 by davebutler	live rock should do some of your filtering, the more holes it has for things to live in and filter your water the better, plus you sometimes get some pleasant suprises hiding in it, keep a watch on e-bay, be prepared to travel, sometimes bid on complete systems, set-ups as rock and contents are often worth more than the tank and people are not prepared to buy/move entire contents. get local friends to help move. This is how I started.
14-05-2006 20:41 by davebutler	Check out http://www.aquarist-classifieds.co.uk/php/detail52_44406.php, live rock @ £5 kilo, can't sniff at that, pity I have no more room, may buy another tank just for the rock as a live filter bed or get poly tank from B&Q.
14-05-2006 22:09 by tony mcculloch	will look at that, still not sure to the advantages of live rock, as I may get things I dont want, and only wanted to add things to the rock that I really like. was going to add things slowly and I have been told that any rock will become live rock once I have established the tank. been out and got my T5S today so theres no turning back, just need a double wardrobe to make my stand.
15-05-2006 10:12 by Alan	Live rock will cycle your tank with out fish being present. do not use damsiels to cycle the tank they are pugnacious and evil no I'm not exaggerating they are actually closely related to cichlids and with their behaviour it is totally believable. Best thing to do in short. Set up the main tank put all the live rock you want in and leave it for a couple of weeks providing all tests are okay you can start adding inverts as the live rock is a ready matured biological filter. At this point it would be good to add a few corals to, to keep it cheap go for softies they are far easier to keep and are not so calcium hungry equally the light levels do not need to be so high also consider polyp colonies such as zooanthids and mushroom anemonies all of which are easy to keep look good and are cheap to maintain. Leave the tank fishless for 2 months this will insure the reef is parasite free then quarantine all new fish prior to introduction and treat using copper based meds this will prevent parasites entering the reef if they do you will have a nightmare on your hands. A simple sponge filter is sufficient for a quarantine tank rig up a maxijet 1200 with a sponge in the main tank when the live rock first goes in have a similar maxi jet in the quarantine tank and just transfer the sponge over to the quarantine tank when ready to buy your first fish. during this time you will need to feed the main tank with zooplankton and phytoplankton. Something straight forward like marine snow will cater for this. Take a look at the thread frozen ball started everything is covered there. A basic list of equipment for a softy tank would be the following: Protein skimmer internal the cheapest option lees medium for example is £20 plus an air pump to run it. Lighting T5's for softies on an 18" tank would be sufficient. If you want to keep stonies a double 150 watt metal halide rig would be needed that pushes the cost up a bit. Live rock to 1 kilo for every 2 gallons. www.stm-shop.co.uk do some of the best in the country. Two stream pumps budget option 2 seio 820 should do the job on a 48x18x18 tank basically you need to turnover the total tank volume at least 20 times per hour possibly more I run at 30 times an hour. Refractometer to measure salinity don't bother with a hydrometer they are useless. A good reef salt this is vital and worth paying the extra for the best I have ever used is TMC proreef salt I think 1st for aquatics sell it for just under £50 a bucket including postage. I would use the external you have to run an 8 watt uv sterilizer. Also test kits are vital only go for salifert kits in my experience all the others give ambiguous results. You need the following as a minimum PH Alkalinity/carbonate hardness Calcium Nitrate Nitrite Phosphate Extras I would consider: Magnesium Possibly Iodine (have been researching this saliferts kit seems to be the best option as it test for all iodine derivatives as well). There are other things to consider but tbhis is the minimum I'm keen to avoid blinding you with science as you have stated you want it kept simple. One thing I would say skimping on live rock is a false economy I tried it and gave in and bought 20 kilos of the best stuff and I have to be honest I was a fool not to start with the stuff in the first place as the good stuff is covered in polyps. 20 kilos set me back £239 this was for stm's ultra grade they also sell premium grade which comes in at £189 I think for 20 kilos it is fully cured to a high standard unless you want uncured I wouldn't recommend it.
15-05-2006 19:19 by frozenball	confussing for us newbis i think
15-05-2006 23:07 by tony mcculloch	thats some good info, and I will keep refering back to it. have heard bad things about live rock and thats whats putting me off getting it. as far as turbulance in the water, I saw somewhere in this forum a simple design where the plans were to use pipes situated throughout the rocks. I am reading plenty of different posts including frozenballs and I am trying to remember all the best stuff, not easy. I have decided to turn my old 4ft tank into a sump so I need to work out what goes where in regards to the skimmer etc
16-05-2006 09:08 by Alan	I thought I kept that quite simple! What bad things have you heard about live rock?
16-05-2006 14:34 by frozenball	it costs a fortune and mantis shrip
16-05-2006 16:12 by tony mcculloch	I have just been quoted £180 for 26 kilos of uncured fiji live rock, this will be for an 48x18x18 tank. what do you think of the price and will this be enought???? the bad things I heard are some form of pests in the rock, worms etc, oh, and plus the cost. ALAN, as you know, I am very happy to take advise and listen to others, I asked advise on my malawi tank, I took the advise and now I am more than happy with it bud
16-05-2006 16:14 by tony mcculloch	PS, I cannot afford top quality rock all at once, so is this uncured stuff better than nothing at all.????????
17-05-2006 10:01 by Alan	Buy it in bits then get ten kilos of the best stuff to start with put it at one end of the tank then a few months later add another ten kilos of the best stuff at the other end. This is one place not to skimp live rock is not that expensive when you look at a comparable alternative which would include a sump trickle filter and a nitrate filter. premium grade live rock from stm costs about £96 for ten kilos. Seriously don't skimp on this.
17-05-2006 11:39 by tony mcculloch	should I foreget the 26 kilos then and go for the 10 kilos a time. dont mind spending the money as iv'e just spent nearly £2.000 on my malawi tanks, hence why the money is low. also, i have just set up a 2ft tank using water from my lfs, a few pieces of live rock, 2 air pump sponge filters and a white light designed for reptiles *quite bright* this morning the two enenema type things have closed up and not looking as nice, so I have added a power head for more circulation, will this be ok and do you think these 2 enenemas will come back??? foregive the spelling.
17-05-2006 11:52 by tony mcculloch	Heres a couple of photos!
17-05-2006 11:52 by tony mcculloch	and one of the enenema???
17-05-2006 12:58 by Alan	Lighting is totally wrong you must use a marine spectrum tube in order for symbiotic algae to grow properly with out it the anemonies will die. Have you tested the water at all? I would avoid the uncured live rock if you have the capabilities of carrying out massive water changes with RO water and a massive skimmer great but if not best avoided as it will also smell bad. As you are on a budget I don't think uncured rock is for you. The rock you have looks extremely dense take a look at the pictures of live rock on www.stm-shop.co.uk there you will see live rock as I think it should be with open structures and massive surface area the stuff you have looks almost like maricultured tuffa rock. You also look like you are on the verge of an algae bloom, way to much green on those rocks. Consider getting some turbos but only if the water tests okay.
17-05-2006 13:16 by tony mcculloch	I will look at that! the lfs gave me the water out of his tanks and said it was fine, he also sold me the live rock etc. I do have a berlin protein skimmer and I am getting an RO unit, probably from the RO man. on the main tank I will be using a 48x15x18 sump. the small tank is just to play about with while I am learning about the water tests.
17-05-2006 13:25 by tony mcculloch	I've got loads of tufa rock and this stuff I have is nothing like it. plenty of life living on and in it. blue sponges, brittle star fish, plenty of bristle worms and a few other bits and bats. maybe i should stick to my malawis.
17-05-2006 14:10 by Alan	Follow the rules and they are easier than malawi's believe me. That comment will probably wind a few people up though. Seriously marines are easy as long as you follow the rules. Basically careful stocking with detailed research on compatability. Quarantining new fish. And most of all keep it simple!
17-05-2006 14:17 by Alan	another place to have a read is www.reef-eden.com
17-05-2006 18:39 by tony mcculloch	hello Alan. just got a T5 and a blue tube for the 2ft tank, the rock doesn't look that green under it. not sure the enenemas are going to make it as they have started to change colour and shape.
18-05-2006 02:41 by frozenball	wow you moving quick
18-05-2006 10:13 by Alan	If they start to fall apart remove them straight away as they will make a mess of the water.
18-05-2006 12:11 by tony mcculloch	hi, frozenball, this is only a small tank to play with and then keep as a quarantine tank, itsnow fully mature, will explain now!!!!! hi Alan,as you know I ran out and changed the lights as you suggested, it now has a single T5 and a blue tube. the water went white so I tested the ammonia and it was high, my mistake was thinking that mature water alone was enought, lucky for me I have become mates with the owner of the LFS and he came around last night for a brew, he took me down to the shop a 8pm, sold me a eheim internal, some salt,and he gave me some media from his established externals. this morning the water is crystal clear,the only thing is that the enenemas have moved themselves completely to the other side of the rocks. will do my 1st marine water change today, but i'm afraid it will only be tap water, mixed with boiled water for the temp, as I cant order the RO unit till the 25th.
18-05-2006 12:21 by Alan	If the water is now fine I wouldn't rush into doing a water change how are the nems looking.
18-05-2006 19:31 by tony mcculloch	I have already tried an unsuccesfull water change, the water in the tank was only at 1.018, and although I managed to get the mix to 1.022 it did not bring the tank water up anymore,I need to bring the tank up to 1.022, how can I do that without adding much more water???? not sure about the other water perameters as not yet re checked.
18-05-2006 23:54 by frozenball	i think that you add your salt to the tank from what i have read , a little at a time and if you go over add more ro water but when doing evaporation top ups just use ro water as salt doesnt evaporate . I think thats right no 100% sure though
19-05-2006 08:37 by Alan	Remove some of the tank water add a little salt to the water you remove so the sg is slightly above what you are aiming for and then add it back to the tank repeat this process over a few days until the sg is at the desired level if the sg is 1.018 it may be the cause of the nem problem or it will be adding to the nem problem as the buffering capacity of the water is not as high as it should be hgenerally inverts should be kept at about 1.024 personally I go for 1.026-1.027 thios is closer to natural sea levels. As far as toping up evaporation frozenball is correct in saying top up with pure RO as salts do not evaporate if you have a high evaporation rate though a good way of increasing the sg is to top up with salt water. Again top up with salt water until the desired sg is reached this method only works if you have a high evaporation rate as I use metal halides and a desk fan for evaporative cooling my tank looses about 3 litres of water a day. With any parameter alteration like this do it over a few days to minimise stress.
19-05-2006 09:19 by tony mcculloch	for once iv'e understood all of that, thanks guys. as usual I have been reading about various equipment, I was looking to see what RO units were available and I descovered that there is so much waste, I think it said out of every 5 gallon water, you will get only 1 gallon RO water, I think this may be a problem for me as I am on a water metre *OUCH*, is there away around this?
19-05-2006 09:36 by Alan	You can collect the waste water and use it in the garden or for water changes with tropicals and the like as long as you not keeping discuss or rays it would be fine. You can reduce waste by fitting a pump. The other option is to use DI resins you will get a 100% return on the water but these units are not cheap to run API make one. The other option is to buy in RO water from a LFS if they offer it as you are on a water meter it may be a worth while option alternatively you could rig up the RO unit waste water to feed your header tank in your loft assuming you have a header tank you would have to adjust the ball valve to a much lower level to avoid water going out the over flow but it may be a viable option I am currently considering linking up my waste ro water to a series of water butts in my garden and I will use this water for water changes on my freshwater tanks as well as washing the car and watering the garden.
19-05-2006 09:43 by Alan	Incidentally to keep the amount of water changes to the minimum I would recommend going for a natural approach this will use just the live rock for filtration as well as a DSB or a caulerpa algae scrubber the later I would recommend as it is easier to set up. This will enable complete cycling of waste ammonia nitrite and nitrate phosphate will also be manged to a certain extent but I would still recommend having something like rowaphos in there. I experimented with my set up after maturing a DSB I managed to go 6 months without a water change I wouldn't recommend this but at the end of the 6 months nitrates were still below 2.5 ppm phosphates were negligable the only downside was the mineral depletion. If you opt for the nitrate factory methods such as canisters you will be forced to carryout more water changes to keep nitrates down.
19-05-2006 09:55 by tony mcculloch	ok that helps, do tropicals and marine on the same day, no problem. I do not have a header tank. I dont know what dsb or caulerpa is???? rowaphos is what????? my plan is to use a 39 gallon sump as apposed to externals.
19-05-2006 09:59 by tony mcculloch	you said it was easier than malawis, easier for you.
19-05-2006 11:34 by frozenball	if you have a local store close to you see if they sell ro water , there is one down the road from us that sells it for £2.50 on 25l ( i think thats a good price) it may be cheaper than the water meter i belive dsb is a deep sand bed link here http://saltaquarium.about.com/od/livesandjaubertsetups/ i belive cauplerpa is just a martine algae used for filtration of nitrate link here http://www.reefs.org/library/article/p_ferguson.html and roaphos is a good old man mad Phospate remover for you filters link below http://www.marinedepot.com/aquarium_filter_media_rowa_rowaphos.asp?CartId= but again i may be wrong as im new to this as well
19-05-2006 12:36 by Alan	There is a very good link that explains DSB's on the reef eden sitye I mentioned above it explains how they work also if you go on the paraquatics site you will find details of miracle mud sumps this would be very easy for you to set up with the sump you have the important thing is to use the correct amount of miracle mud and to have an appropriate weir system in the sump so the substrate is not stirred up it would be easy for you to do the mods yourself. Also the muid sump should be lit 24 hours a day to prevent the caulerpa going sexual its best to add a few species of caulerpa to the sump initially the majority will crash but one will prevail this will act as the algae scrubber the rate of growth will be dependent on the nutrients in the tank. DSB's are very effective but fiddly and need careful monitoring to insure they don't die not something I recommend to the beginner as they require careful planning and good local access to suitable critters for saving them from the brink. Rowaphos is one of the best phosphate removers on the market there are some new ones just ariving on the British market that purport to be better then rowaphos although I am not sure of this claim. Take a look at customer tanks on the paraquatics website spefically focusing on eco system tanks you will see what can be acheived without artificial filtration it is best to stock these systems lightly though but I am aware of a public aquarium display in the czech republic I think that houses 3 sharks and a large number of fish in a system based around eco methods incorporating live rock and an algae scrubber as well as extensive skimming however in a carefully stocked tank a skimmer is unneccessary.

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