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Home      Reply		Viewed: 680 -- Replies: 47
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Posted	TRYING TO DIAGNOSE ILLNESS
30-05-2006 19:14 by Lexter	Have lost 4 fish in my Rio 180 community over last 10 days, including 3 in last 3 days. Water parameters checked (every week), Ammonia and Nitrite are 0 and Nitrate is 40-50 (but i have always had atleast 20-50) - I dont think the issue is Nitrate. No additions (NOTHING) to tank in 5-6 weeks. 3 of the 4 dead fish have been Mollies. Symptoms are (a) listlessness (b) staying up near top of tank (c) 3 of the fish that have died have appeared slightly underweight (d) some scratching on rocks of quite a few fish, a definiate increase in this behaviour past week or so. One of the mollies, not sure if is one of the dead ones, I saw the other day almost "jumping" around and twitching, did it for a few secs and then not again, it definitly seemed like it had an irritant on skin. NO DEAD FISH have had any markings or visible sign of infection or parasite. Once fish becomes a bit "in active" it dies within 2-3 days. Actually all four of the fish did not ACTUALLY DIE in tank. I had to finish them off humanley. Searched tank, no dead fish hidden or fish missing. Usual fortnightly 25-30% water changes with 24 hour old treated tapwater. No over zealous cleaning of filration, plenty of surface agitation No live foods in last 3 weeks, no other food changes recently No temperature probs, have a digital one that "alarms" if it gets above 82F or below 76F ACTION SO FAR due to rock scratching and Molly "jumping and twitching" i have completed a cycle of STERAZIN for Ectoparasites and flukes. No difference observed or reduced "flicking" and "scratching" and 3 or the 4 deaths have occured since this treatment (did not overdose) Then, 35-40% water change, 2 days gap since last STERZAIN dose and added a dose of INTERPET 7 ANTI SLIME and VELVET as this was the only protozoan meds i had. Added this two days ago (regular dose) mixed with warm water as advised on bottle. Wondering what to do next if no improvement???? Was thinking (after another 30% water change in a 3-4 days time) to either (a) WATER LIFE PROTOZON (b) INTERPET FINROT and FUNGUS (i understand some fungus disease can be internal and not visible sometimes???) (c) INTERPET ANTI INTERNAL BACTERIA (d) MYAXIN (e) ESHA either one of the two main ones they do or BOTH??? i heard you can mix them??? (f) DIFFERENT FORUM ADVICE Considering the details above what would people do next???? Am cautious of using too much different meds......... How much can i get away with using different meds and 35% water changes???? PLEASE VOTE A,B,C,D, E or F and say why. THANKS
30-05-2006 19:18 by Danny Boy	i think you are right to avoid the meds. your tank sounds right to me. i was going to suggest temp issues but you addressed that further down the post. personally id stick to weekly water changes and if the fish you have can take it a low dose of salt. it may even be worth treating the tap water as the treatment will contain an aloe vera thats also great for the fish as well as treating the water.
30-05-2006 19:21 by Lexter	thanks, was thinking tonic salt but my Rio 180 is completely lush with nice live plants, not sure about plants and salt Danny???
30-05-2006 19:22 by paul stevens	C for c***
30-05-2006 19:22 by Lexter	i treat my tap water with NUTRAFIN AQUA PLUS
30-05-2006 19:24 by Danny Boy	i know very little about plants im afraid.
30-05-2006 19:26 by rob r	in a space of 2 weeks all my livebearers died for no visible reason non of my other fish were affected in any way whatsoever only stuff i tried was internal bacteria
30-05-2006 19:30 by Lexter	and it didnt work i take it rob r? am wondering whether this is bacterial, parasite or fungus, hoping Alan will see this thread
30-05-2006 19:36 by von	not sure about the plants but i'm GUESSING a treatment level of salt will be ok? however your molly's will defo apprieciate it. Personally i wouldn't add any meds, especially as we don't know whats wrong
30-05-2006 19:39 by Lexter	i am thinking about just whipping all the livebearers out and putting them in a 2 footer with some salt for a week von - i get your point about meds, but there is obviously a pathogen or something in there, just wanted to get a head start, question is, is the problem BACTERIAL, FUNGAL or PARASITE based???
30-05-2006 19:39 by clownloachlady	Dont like mollies at all... the rats of tropical fish...
30-05-2006 19:39 by rob r	ive added more lbearers sincs n theyre all ok its a mystery
30-05-2006 19:40 by Lexter	yes not sure about mollies myself, because they prefer brackish conditions, might have to do a re-stock and remove mollies BUT dont want to unless completely necessary
30-05-2006 19:41 by von	If nothings visable i would guess acterial, i think i would od as you suggested, hospital tank with a bit of salt, at least your plants would be ok and the fish could recover
30-05-2006 19:43 by Lexter	yes Von i agree BUT, what about all the scratching on rocks and plants, i understand this is more indicative of a parasite, if not then bacteria maybe the issue My gut feeling tells me this is not molly related but cant ignore than 3 of 4 deaths are mollies i suppose
30-05-2006 19:46 by von	No i agree but if nothings visable on their skin..... are they eating? clamping their fins or anything?
30-05-2006 19:49 by Lexter	eating fine, some of the female guppies look a bit "fin clamped" just been looking again now, quite a bit of "scratching" and "flicking" I like the idea of whipping them all out, but you talking about 20-25 livebearers I have a couple of 2 footers spare but only one mature filter and obviously fish will be stressed not willing to add salt to main tank though, coz of all my plants i think identify the best meds from people on here and do that unless some better idea comes along i think it was the live food from 4-5 weeks ago introduced something perhaps, it was bloodworms and tubifex
30-05-2006 19:50 by Lexter	does anyone have ALAN's email or phone number???
30-05-2006 19:51 by von	I can't see what else it could be. Would of thought it would of shown it self sooner though. To be honest i can't advise you on meds as i never use them. touch wood i'm not tempting fate now! hope they are ok
30-05-2006 19:51 by clownloachlady	why dont u take plants out and put them in another tank or bucket of water while u treat fish lexter?
30-05-2006 19:52 by Lexter	possible cll - thanks as most of them are planted bog wood anyway but still not sure..... thanks for suggestion tho
30-05-2006 19:53 by Lexter	nice one Von, no meds eh? thats impressive
30-05-2006 19:54 by von	shush, don't jinx me
30-05-2006 19:56 by clownloachlady	my cat is called jinx... lol
30-05-2006 19:57 by Lexter	please i know i am guilty of it but can this thread not turn into a general chatting session, please!!!! joking but with a serious element
30-05-2006 19:58 by trik	Lexter iv read alot about electronic probs the last few days try putting a second one in there you may find a big dif from wat i have learnt about them .un less they are calibrated regular they will give u a plus or minus of about 5 deg.
30-05-2006 20:00 by Lexter	good point with stick a manual thermometre in too, thanks pal
30-05-2006 20:02 by clownloachlady	lex take the plants out and put them in something big enough or even take the mollies out and put them with some old tank water somewhere else... thing is if the mollies get better, you still will have to rinse and soak the plants as disease and bacteria can hide and live in wood, plants and ornaments... depending on how much plants u got decide if the plants are throw away-able and replace and if not id suggest move fish.
30-05-2006 20:02 by trik	your welcome mate
30-05-2006 20:05 by anna	good evening mr lexter i wud add a small amount of salt into tank at 1 teaspoon per 2 gallon as that will not hurt ur plants one bit, i wudnt add any medication in till u can see a definite problem and then treat with the relevant medication
30-05-2006 20:17 by Lexter	thanks anna, well there is definitly a problem, are you sure about salt not damaging plants? will research further thanking you
30-05-2006 20:31 by anna	well iv never had any of my plants suffer kept in that amount
30-05-2006 20:37 by Lexter	thinking about getting some good charcoal tomorrow and filtering out previous meds and doing 35% water change and then using either Myaxin or Protozin unless i get a better idea in the meantime I really appreciate and respect peoples views on not using meds yet, but i cant bear the thought of fish having disease and dying off in meantime, but obviously i will listen to the advice and make a decision in the morning I look after my Rio 180 so careful, so cant bear to see it like a badly kept local fish store guppy tank with sick fish scrathcing against rocks
30-05-2006 20:45 by paul stevens	Anna:- 1 teaspoon per 2 gallon as that will not hurt ur plants one bit, Lex:-are you sure about salt not damaging plants? will research further. How *** rude is that i dont no anna hun no trust in you is there. Its him i wouldn't trust
30-05-2006 20:45 by Michael C	I think the Nitrate is a bit high for my liking, possibly stressing the fish ?
30-05-2006 20:50 by Lexter	i see your point Michael but my nitrate has always been this level really and its acutally lower in last few months
30-05-2006 20:52 by Lexter	am wondering the following does fast death rate between "in activity" and death (1-3 days) mean is more likely bacterial??? does no sign on body of illness indicate more bacterial??? but does all the flicking mean more likely a parasite??? AN UPDATE FLICKING AGAIN PLANTS AND POTS OF FISH (LIVE BEAERS ONLY NOT KRIBS) HAS INCREASED MASSIVELY IN LAST 24 HOURS
30-05-2006 20:54 by Lexter	i have also treated with two different anti-parasite meds in last 10-12 days and no improvement. I know this isnt ideal but i did follow all guidelines and do a 35-40% water change in between treatments, but only let 48hrs elapse between treatments
30-05-2006 21:20 by nige	a friend who used to import fish had a problem with a disease called "singapore rot" it used to wipe out tanks of guppies and mollies. only effecting the livebearers. the symptoms were the same as those you described (flicking, lethargic, clamped fins, death) and the only med he used to use was king british's WS3 its a bacterial infection. to conferm this i recomend a skin scrape from the next deadun and look at it under a microscope
30-05-2006 23:40 by Lexter	ALAN or ANYONE ELSE with a good idea based on experience and knowledge what meds (if any) PROTOZON? MYAXIN? ESHA 2000 (what one)? INTERPET (fungus / anti internal bacteria)
31-05-2006 08:59 by PaddyD	I would use carbon to get rid of existing meds. It sounds parasitic, especially if several of your other fish are flicking (is it only your livebearers?) What is your pH - if this is very acidic you may have had a crash, this could cause mollies to behave like this. You could take your livebearers out and give them a strong salt bath for an hour or so - longer is not required. I would not put salt in as it could damage sensitive plant species. Also salt at a 'tonic' lovel, may not be strong enough to act as a cure. If you are brave you might want to try a marine treatment with copper like MM2 (I treat at a half dose). I have used this for stubborn forms of white spot. Remember this will kill any invertibrates in the tank though. And there is a risk it will affect the filters, I have only used this treatment when I have had multiple tanks to play with, not when it is my only main tank. So it would be better to set up another tank if you can. Just some ideas. King british wsp is a parasitic treatment, I hear it is good again (it used to be fantastic, then it became poor when they changed the formula, it may be good again, but I have not used it) TEMP: This is a longer treatment, but it can work, make sure you have lots of aration and keep the temp at 82 for a couple of weeks. But do check that all your fish species will tolerate it. As you are dealing with an unknown, this is the option I would choose - you may have to disconect your alarm, or set it higher. Good luck
31-05-2006 09:47 by Lexter	Thanks Paddy D pH is 7.5-8.0 according to my tests, as it always is So we are leaning toward to parasite then.... well sterazin and interpet number 7 for slime and velvet (protozons) made no difference I think salt bath has to be an option Paddy D - i was wondering for how long, but you seem to have answered this as one hour is enough If you are still around today how much salt would you recommend for mollies, guppies and platies. I might put all the mollies in a seperate tank for an hour and therefore a higher dose than guppies and platies??? Thanks Paddy
31-05-2006 09:52 by Lexter	RIGHT AS THINGS STAND i intend to remove all livebearers and do a strong(ish) salt bath for an hour or so, then out them back in and treat with a good parasite medication (question is which one?) Sterazin didnt work and Interpet number 7 hasnt worked ESHA, Protozon or another one?
31-05-2006 10:41 by Alan	First thing forget waterlife I have a rather persistant strain of flukes in my tank waterlife remedies did nothing. Try and find a remedy that dose exactly what it says on the tin basically states it ingredients very few do this the only one I know of is sera costapur this is a malachite green formalin mix both pretty nasty chemicals. I had to use a very high dose to get any where with this. I am currently trying acriflavine as I had a relapse this seems to be working I have given up on the usual tank remedies and I'm buying pond remedies know as they tend to sell the raw chemicals after a battering with Acriflavine I will be using Malachite green and then formalin. Getting to your problem though mollies generally prefer a brackish environment or at least a hard water one your ph implies you live in a hard water area so that should help. The symptoms you describe are consistant with skin flukes is there rapid gill movement along with the symptoms? If so these flukes are entering the gills and eating them contrary to popular belief skin flukes will also invade gills as gill flukes primarily do it is possible that to have an infestation of both or even perhaps costia. Esha remedies are very good I would recommend using esha 2000 with esha exit (I think it is exit) this will cover virtually all possibilities. www.eshalabs.com 2000 and exit can be used together I believe. Number 7 takes time to work at least 7 days I beleive it is a copper treatment as it is dangerous to mormyrids as well I assume as dangerous to rays. The other option is a live bearer specific pathogen I don't know of any specific names but I have heard they do exist and I am also aware that live bearers are prone to neon tetra disease so it is possible you have something live bearer specific incidentally are these black mollies? If so these will fair far better in brackish conditions of all the mollies I would say it is the black ones that definately require brackish even a marine environment.
31-05-2006 10:48 by Alan	Before trying any new remedy carry out a series of water changes to remove remedies that are already in there. In short try one of the following: Esha Malachite green Formalin (Apparently sterazin is based on this) Malachite green Formalin mix such as sera costapur Also consider relocating the mollies to a brackish set up and raise the salt levels using a quality synthetic salt mix to an sg of at least 1.005 possibly 1.010 this will over about a week kill the parasites the mollies should also benefit from a reduction in stress due to the properties of salt preventing sodium dumping by the fish the salt levels for the mollies must be brought up to this over a few days though. The water will need to be airated vigourously as the fish will have suffered gill damage and salt water cannot hold as much oxygen incidentally you may find they recover very quickly and start breeding like mad I have also heard mollies fair so much better that they can attain their max size of 4" in these types of set up this includes sailfin mollies which can also be kept in full marine conditions with an sg of 1.026 natural sea water level.
31-05-2006 12:54 by Danny Boy	alan intrested in your comment on black mollies specifically. any reason? are you saying the clour is a species?
31-05-2006 13:55 by Alan	black mollies in particular and I assume those mollies crossed with them are particularly prone to fungus and whitespot in freshwater aquaria so much so they rarely make it beyond a year in a freshwater tank not my experience recently as I haven't kept mollies for a very long time I intend to add some to my marine tank though as some point in particular orange sailfin mollies just debating whether or not my humbug damsel might be a bit much of a brute. The one I am thinking of is Poecilia sphenops. You also get Poecilia latipinna in many colour forms including black as well as crosses between this and sphenops that muddle the situation and those mollies with the largest sailfins are the mexican sailfin Poecilia velifera. I have heard the velifera has been found in the gulf of mexico. I believe they are all brackish species by design although it is difficult to find exact locations they come form Central America Yucatan peninsula are a little general for my liking I prefer to see an example of specific rivers as well as this to give a better idea of location and ideal water parameters.
31-05-2006 14:16 by Alan	Here is a link to a fishbase page showing all representatives of Poecilia. http://www.fishbase.org/NomenClature/ScientificNameSearchList.php?crit1_fieldname=SYNONYMS.SynGenus&crit1_fieldtype=CHAR&crit1_operator=EQUAL&crit1_value=poecilia&crit2_fieldname=SYNONYMS.SynSpecies&crit2_fieldtype=CHAR&crit2_operator=contains&crit2_value=&group=summary&backstep=-2&sortby=sciname Its a long list. In summary habitat for latipinna Occurs in ponds, lakes, sloughs, and quiet, often vegetated, backwaters and pools of streams (Ref. 5723) and also in coastal waters (Ref. 7251). Abundant in tidal ditches and brackish canals. Feeds mainly on algae (Refs. 7251; 44091). Habitat for sphenops benthopelagic; non-migratory; freshwater; brackish; pH range: 7.5 – 8.2; dH range: 11 - 30 velifera benthopelagic; non-migratory; freshwater; brackish; pH range: 8 – 8; dH range: 13 - 19

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