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Posted	Discus Death
05-09-2006 10:56 by Malawimad	Got home from work last night at approx 5pm, fed the malawi's as usual and gave the discus there 3rd lot of beefheart for the day, all the discus seemed fine, i have a habbit of checking over them whilst they feed as they tend to be a little shy when not feeding, I went back out at 7pm, came home and gave the discuss there 4th feed at approx 8:30pm, after that feed i looked at the tank and noticed the largest discuss i had (3") was gasping at the bottom and laid on his side, I immediately got hold of him and placed him in a netted breading box which sits on the side of the tank, he swam a little and then just laid again, this went on for about an hour or so, he would get up, swim and then lay again, his black stripes we're very apparant so i could tell he wasn't happy, but all the other discuss looked fine, no black stripes at all, checked parimaters and everything bang on, i placed the discuss in a carrier bag and placed him in the freezer, i couldn't watch him suffer anymore... I then did my usual daily 10% water change.. checked parimaters again and everything the same.... Any ideas why i would just loose 1, i checked him for marks and knocks and he didn't have a scratch on him anywhere.... I have had these fish for just over a month, and when i bought them some we're only 3 weeks old so they we're very delicate and suseptable to bad water conditions, what i'm saying is since i bought them i have ensured the water has been perfect, The one that died seemed to grow quicker than the rest, the marlbro reds are still only about 1" but everyone of the reds are fine, Paul (the breeder) who i got these off said if i was to lose any it will prob be the reds because i took them so young!
05-09-2006 11:09 by telboy	i know nowt bout discus MM,just a thought,if this particular fish was bigger than the rest could it be it was eating more, and could he have eaten too much + pigged itself to death???just thinking out loud mate!
05-09-2006 11:10 by FISHY	sounds like the fish got stressed some how?
05-09-2006 11:20 by dave cook	i used to feed my discus twice a day and they are fine maybe they getting over fed
05-09-2006 11:33 by FISHY	beefheart polutes the water. you should feed baby discus 4x a day but not 4x beefheart. it should vary in each feed. say beefheart, flake ect ect is there a film on top of the water from where you have been feeding them beefheart? the oil and rubbish. as this will kill baby discus.
05-09-2006 11:47 by Malawimad	No film as i have seen, I am not over feeding, i only feed what they can consume in a couple of mins, Baby discuss should be fed a min of 4 times daily, but there clever, I'll feed BH at 7am, feed ZM granules at noon and they wont touch them, Its as though they know i have a huge piece of BH in the freezer... Fingers crossed i wont lose another!
05-09-2006 11:50 by Malawimad	Beefheart does send nitrates and amonia through the roof "IF YOU LET IT", I change 10% per day and syphon all the loose debra's from the base of the tank, If pieces of BH are left over night it starts to rot causing the nitrates to go through the roof, but I never ever let this happen, believe it or not i check everything daily, before and after i do water changes and keep a record, when i started this project i went about it the right way, So i know its nothin to do with the water!
05-09-2006 11:52 by FISHY	ok mate fair enoff. what gh/kh have you got in the tank?
05-09-2006 11:54 by Malawimad	GH 8 KH 8 PH 7.2 Nitrates are less than 25 ppm
05-09-2006 11:56 by FISHY	im just starting up a planted discus tank. having probs finding the right gh/kh for the discus and the plants ect
05-09-2006 12:00 by Malawimad	to be honest fishy dont worry about GH and KH for discus, not unless u want them to breed, I'm lucky to have very good tap water, but i only use plants which are hardy just incase, I have amozon swords, Java ferns, nothing much more than that other than a load of bodwood and an air driven filter box packed with pete extract....
05-09-2006 12:04 by FISHY	no im not interestid in breeding, just fancy a tank with discus in. used to have a pair a while back they seemed quite easy to keep as long as you kept the tank clean. just want to try a well planted discus tank this time so im going to put in gravel ect ect, also a few tetra's and clown loaches. witch will make it a lot harder to keep clean.
05-09-2006 12:09 by FISHY	it seems a hell of a lot easyer to set up a breeding tank than a planted tank. i have an ro unit so can get kg/kh down to 3 but need to raise them for the other fish/plants. which by adding tap water too ro then cauzes nirates too go up which i dnt want.
05-09-2006 12:42 by sonia	i would go easy on the beef heart, they are not fry, dont really require such a protein heavy diet. Try to give your fish a balanced diet Malawimad, and also 10% a day water change doesnt do much, why not try 30% every 3 days. I know it sounds the same but it isnt, by doing 10% even siphoning you really arent doing anything to improve the water quality significantly. It also means you are stressing your fish EVERY DAY instead of every three days. Think about it.
05-09-2006 12:49 by FISHY	totaly agree with sonia. on how i said they dnt need BH 4x a day.
05-09-2006 12:57 by sonia	malawi, if you feed fish there favourite food all the time of course they will prefer it, do yourself a favour be very disciplined with them, if they dont eat the other foods then they can go hungry for a few days they wont sie of starvation, not for a good few weeks and sooner or later THEY WILL eat the other foods, like i said take it easy on the beef heart, its very fatty and rich, i am not even sure they need it every day let alone more than once a day, try beef heart 3-4 times a week. There are other frozen foods you can use too. to be fair i have never kept discus but i my uncle had a full set up including all this carbon dioxide injectors and everything, i think his whole set up cost him about £5000 pounds. he sold it before i got into fish keeping as he moved to Australia can i ask, are you in a big hurry to grow them on?
05-09-2006 13:13 by Malawimad	No not in a hurry to grow them on, i've done lots of research into discus keeping and when young BH is recommended at least twice a day, 30% every three days doesn't make sense sonia, your leaving the decompopsing food on the bottom for 72 hours, its not good for nitrates etc, and you'll know yourself that discus dont tolerate high levels of nitrate, 10% per day is a must, top breeders do 20% twice a day for young... the water must be clean and maintened to ensure good growth, the fish have got used to me doing the daily changes, they even come to my hands so i know for sure its not stressing them out. Tonight i am buying some fresh beefheart, i intend to remove all the fat, shove it through a blender, mix with ZM granules and put them into little cubes then freeze, think its the only way to introduce other feeds, you have to bare in mind that these fish have been reared on BH since the day they we're born, its not easy getting them to like other foods.
05-09-2006 13:14 by Malawimad	Beefheart also has very very little fat, Have you ever seen a beefheart? its just rich meet and rarely fat in it!
05-09-2006 13:15 by FISHY	starve them they will eat flake food fine.
05-09-2006 13:16 by FISHY	there is a lot of fat and oil in a BH. like i say if you over feed fish on it you will see this on top of the water. an oily film.
05-09-2006 13:16 by sonia	some good points Malawimad, but as for decomposing foods, thats simple, dont over feed, there shouldnt be so much decomposing food in such a short space of time. If there is uneaten food you are over feeding i wouldnt worry too much top breeders do, i assumed you were just a regular hobbyist, but i admire your ambition!!! good luck though, you obviously dedicated
05-09-2006 13:17 by sonia	i could be wrong malawi or my advice was wrong. i was told my LFS that beef heart was higher in fat than other foods like blood worm and it sure feels "fatty" and looks a "fatty" when i had the frozen cubes. Sorry if i wrong on that, will read up now
05-09-2006 13:20 by Malawimad	Fishy i never come across a very fatty BH, its solid meat, I change 10% per day, i dont give it chance to put any films on the water, and to be honest i've never heard of what ya saying! You cant starv baby discuss, the slightest thing can stress them out, bang there dead! Sonia, Not always food is left at the bottom, when i drop in the beefheart i try and trick them into eating zm, but this is always left at the bottom along with any other bits the fish may have left, i take them out as a precaution more than anything....
05-09-2006 13:21 by Malawimad	If you go to the butchers and ask to look at a full beefheart you'll see there is no fat, prob a little bit of tissue on the outside but i get the butcher to remove that and dice.... I'm going to look into it too though, got me thinking now, but even still i dont think the fat (if any) would just wipe out a discuss???? Strange!
05-09-2006 13:21 by FISHY	mate you can starve them! they can go for a week without eating when they reach an inch! you lost one last night, you say it was the biggest... EATING TO MUCH!! 4x a day on a BH. its to much mate
05-09-2006 13:24 by FISHY	honestly they are very fatty oily high in protein lumps of meat.
05-09-2006 13:26 by sonia	no i think you are right malawi, from what i can see on internet beef heart does have a fair bit of fat in it, but this is mostly REMOVED for the purposes of fish frozen food, so i guess it depends on the quality of the frozen food you buy malawi i think the guy in fish shop might have been talking nonsense, but i stopped feeding beefheart as i was told it was too high in fat but you right discus owners do tend to feed a lot of beef heart and they must know what they doing what i think it is, is that beefheart may have slightly more fat than some other frozen foods thats all, but i am sure it depends on the quality
05-09-2006 13:26 by FISHY	how do you feed them it?? the best way is to freeze it then get a cheese grater and grate it.
05-09-2006 13:26 by Malawimad	Fishy.... I think ya wrong mate, and if not i have never ever heard anyone starving baby discuss, I will try your theory and try my best getting them to eat other foods, but would never starv them....
05-09-2006 13:27 by FISHY	this is why people are so scared to keep discus because people say things like that!! when discus reach an inch they are fine not to be feed for a week!
05-09-2006 13:27 by Malawimad	Thats the way i do it Fishy!
05-09-2006 13:28 by FISHY	its when they are fry they need feeding 4x a day.
05-09-2006 13:28 by Malawimad	Well i live in the yorkshire hills, the quality of meet around me is bang on, and the butcher knows me and always saves me the best bits!
05-09-2006 13:29 by Malawimad	Fishy its not... Phone a breeder, when would you consider a discuss not to be young, how old? how big?
05-09-2006 13:29 by FISHY	keep posting updates on how you get on with them mate. im hoping to get my new ones soon be interesting to hear more on here about discus. GOOD LUCK
05-09-2006 13:30 by Malawimad	I must have read 15 books on discuss and spoke to several breeders, your wrong about that fishy!
05-09-2006 13:30 by sonia	malawi mad what do you think about my point about decomposing food, how comes you got so much of it on the floor of your tank? is it a bare tank? i wouldnt starve as such as not eating must contribute to some kind of stress, i just think fish can be like little kids sometimes, if they get there own way with food at a young age they can be difficult to adapt!!! I know Oscars are classic example
05-09-2006 13:31 by Malawimad	Hi Sonia, its usually the ZM i mix in whats left on the bottom, there not stupid fish let me tell u!
05-09-2006 13:31 by FISHY	ino breeders, my grandad bread discus he had a fish house at the bottom of the garden with just discus. he used keep em in rain water! no chemicals back in them days left em for a week before doing w/c. no probs people so take this to far.
05-09-2006 13:32 by FISHY	if you feed them 4x a day with BH they will NEVER eat anything else.. FACT!
05-09-2006 13:34 by Malawimad	Fishy... Do you keep discuss? I appreciate your info mate, this is a very good thread... But honestly 15 books and several breeders cant be wrong, its always nice learning new stuff, but i would never do anything your recommending or saying with my discuss, there would be fatalities....
05-09-2006 13:34 by sonia	well i just read on a discus site that you can feed baby discus 15-20 times a day with as much as they can eat in 30 secs!!! not sure what size they meant by "baby discus" malawi - i agree about multiple feedings, i have done this with malawi fry to speed up growth and i am sure it helps with colours, the price for multiple feedings is a risk of parameter upsets, but that can be managed through adequate filtration and water changes. another site i just saw advocates 50% water change every day for young discus!!! its big business....
05-09-2006 13:34 by FISHY	all discus need is clean water. its when you start adding other fish and plants and gravel and things like that they become hard to look after. discuss in a tank nothing else need a w/c 50% twice a week feeding bh twice a week NOMORE!! they should eat flake food on a daily basis not bh....
05-09-2006 13:35 by Malawimad	I would do some research fishy, your wrong mate!
05-09-2006 13:35 by FISHY	malawi what is this thread about!! a dead discus
05-09-2006 13:36 by Malawimad	So what if it is fishy, where having a good convo here and its nice knowing other peeps opinions!
05-09-2006 13:37 by FISHY	iv had discus malawi. i have even bread discus. this was 5 years ago. in ro water discus are so easy to keep. when they are fry they need feeding 4x a day!! not on bh on various things. when they are an inch the should be having bh as a treat twice a week
05-09-2006 13:38 by FISHY	your problem nos is because someone has told you to giv them BH 4x a day it is going to b hard to get them to eat anything else.
05-09-2006 13:44 by Malawimad	Fishy....Appreciate your info, and will try it see how we go, but from listening to several peeps and breeders aswell as reading books, your info doesn't even come close to what i've read and heard! My tap water is bang on perfect, infact majority of peeps on here would love my tap water, RO unit not reallyt required, although may invest when i move house, have to see what the water is like there.... One bit of info i got on here, which is fact and very true... "Stability is the key" keeping things stable and to a routine you will get good results, I'll post tomorrow and let u know how the flake goes.
05-09-2006 13:45 by FISHY	at the end your saying these fish are so sensitive. do you no how the fish are brought to this contry from the wild???
05-09-2006 13:45 by FISHY	"Stability is the key" keeping things stable and to a routine you will get good results, I'll post tomorrow and let u know how the flake goes. 110% i agree with you!!
05-09-2006 13:47 by FISHY	as these fish grow are you still going to feed them 4x a day on BH??
05-09-2006 13:51 by FISHY	these fish are brought into the country in DRAIN PIPE!! like pringles in a tube, then filled with water. the key to keeping discus is 100 perfect water. Stability. and getting them into a routine.. 10% w/c a day NO POINT. they want 50% w/c twice a week they need to be feed on differnt things. not just bh.
05-09-2006 13:52 by FISHY	you get that right and the fish will eat out your hands! they are only shy and sensitive when somthing is wrong!
05-09-2006 13:56 by wymcot	Fishy, now your saying you know all about keeping discus, what was all this about then ? http://www.aquarist-classifieds.co.uk/forum/viewtopic_5358.php
05-09-2006 13:59 by FISHY	what do you mean what was that about?? got nothing to do with keeping discus that is to do with keeping discus in a planted tank with other fish!! if i jus had discus it whould be gh/kh 4!!
05-09-2006 14:01 by Malawimad	In theory though Fishy, I am changing 70% per week, which i feel is addaquate, I'm not chaging now i've started my routine, as the fish grow i will reduce the feeds and the number of water changes, But i agree with what your saying, But if my parimeters are always stable then it would be stupid to change to 50% twice a week and run the risk of PH crashing and GH and KH going up and down causing the PH to fluctuate... I've found a comfort zone as far as maintening stablilty, wouldn't risk changing now! My fish are tank bread!
05-09-2006 14:02 by Malawimad	lol wymcot... Think that says it all really fishy, your going to make yourself look silly if you say anymore now mate!
05-09-2006 14:03 by FISHY	if they are tank breed fish they will live in prety much anything. so the water carnt be the problem and as you say you have very good redings. so it must be you are feeding them to much. at the end of the day one has died so something somewhere is wrong
05-09-2006 14:04 by FISHY	what has the gh/kh got to do with keeping discus!! if you keep them in ro !! you dont need to worry about it! what is it with people n worying abt discus this much!!
05-09-2006 14:07 by FISHY	she has also just told u 4x a day on bh is 2 much!! you lot on here loving giving *** advise but u dnt listen 2 *** ne1 tells u
05-09-2006 14:09 by wymcot	It had to happen I suppose, hope you didnt hurt yourself tripping yourself up. GH & KH have everything to do with it, KH is linked to PH so get one wrong and the other goes with it, Discus preffer soft water so GH is also imoportant, especially those who do not have the advantage of an RO unit. Be aware that any adivise given on here is read by a lot of people, thats why we all try to make sure any advise given is based on fact or experience and not guess work
05-09-2006 14:10 by FISHY	you wer told 20x malawi 2 get an ro unit when you where asking about how to keep them n did you listen NO!! if u just have discuss in a tank get an ro unit!! that it all you need to do! gh/kh oF 8 IF THERE IS JUST BABY DISCUSS IN THE TANK THIS IS FAR TO HIGH! THEY ARE SOFT WATER FISH! THEY NEED A GH/KH OF 4
05-09-2006 14:10 by wymcot	There you go again "if they are tank breed fish they will live in prety much anything" THAT IS BAD ADVISE
05-09-2006 14:10 by telboy	now now ladies!
05-09-2006 14:11 by wymcot	My you are getting confused arnt you "what has the gh/kh got to do with keeping discus!! "
05-09-2006 14:11 by FISHY	WYMCOT!!Discus preffer soft water so GH is also imoportant RIGHT! SO MALAWI HAS DISCUSS IN GH/KH OF 8!! AND A PH OF 7.2 IS THIS SOFT WATER
05-09-2006 14:12 by FISHY	My you are getting confused arnt you LISTEN 2 U! SOFT WATER PH OF 7.2 NONO THATS HARD WATER
05-09-2006 14:13 by FISHY	IF MALAWI JUST HAS DISCUS IN A TANK THE PH SHOULD B 6.5/7 MAX AND GH/KH OF 4 MAX !! I WANTED TO NO LAST WEEK ABOUT GH/AND GK FOR A COMMUINITY DISCUS TANK AS I WHOULD HAVE TO FIND A MIDWAY POINT IN IT ALL
05-09-2006 14:14 by von	For starers beef heart is extremely fatty! it's red meat, wether it looks lean or not, it's very high in lipids, which eventually will stop your fishes hearts, just like a human who eats steak everyday. Feeding a few times a day is fine but youy raelly need to listen to people and vary the diet, i had this problem with my turtle, when i got him he would only eat peas! after a starvation period when he refused everthing i offered him he got hungry and now takes almost anything. Don't let the fish rule you. As Sonia said 10% a day is a waste of time, yes it emoves uneaten food food but a ssonia said don't overfeed. 10% a day is not really the same as changing a larger amount less often, you will be barely diluting toxins only for them to constantly building up and you just taking a tiny fraction away. You will kill them with kindness, honestly, take some advice for your fish's sake.

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