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Viewed: 539 -- Replies: 25 | ||||||||
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| Posted | Protozin & Corys |
| 25-03-2007 21:28 by AndreaC |
I noticed a few white spots on my rams dorsal fin and him flicking. Also spotted a mollie flicking aswell. So Yesturday I started waterlife protozin tretment.
What i completly forgot (and yes I know Im a prat) is I did normal full dose and have corys!! It wasnt until I had already added the 2nd dose thismorning and realised this evening that your supposed to half the dose with corys 
As I finaly clicked I went to look in tank and 1 cory looked dead (found out it wasnt soon after) and was missing! The others looked lethargic. Ive immidiatly done a 50% water change. I found the missing cory under a cave rock tucked well away. What i want know is what are my chances of them surviving this?? Is there anything els I should do and is a 50% water change enough?? Also how do i go about carrying on treatment now? Another dose is due tomorrow (obviously half dose), should I do this and then the 4th dose on thursday? With me only doing half doses how effective will this clear up the whitspot? will I need to continue the course longer?? I havent a clue why the ram has gotton this as water paremeters have been bang on at: Amonia: 0ppm Nitrite 0ppm nitrate 20ppm Im so pi****d off with myself ive made this mistake when I know better and if they die I will feel so awful. |
| 25-03-2007 22:12 by Jim Son |
the trouble with using half-dose protozin is that it redcues the chances if it working. I have always used a full dose (about 3-4 times over the years) and most of my tanks have corydoras in, never had a problem, i think you just unlucky |
| 25-03-2007 23:06 by Elmo |
It may not be white spot on your ram, because at the moment there are so many poor specimens being bred they have very weak bloodlines and rams usually dont live long and get small tumours, even with treatment the ram probably wont have a long time left. |
| 26-03-2007 10:34 by AndreaC |
Well thismorning the corys are all back to normal  Thankgod, the water change must of worked wonders.
Elmo, I dont think its tumor  saying that though thismorning the white spots have gone
I have however just discovered on the side of one of my mollies a white patch. Ive got up close but cant figure what it is?? When the molly turns it looks like a white fluffy fungal patch, but from the side it kind of looks like a wound? Hard to tell cause the molly is white itself. Can you put salt in with cat fish in the tank?? |
| 26-03-2007 12:45 by Alan |
I wouldn't recommend salt with cory's.
Your not having much luck are you! Personally I do not like waterlife treatments and avoid them like the plague since a nasty tank crash myxazin wiped out my filters. I opt for esha 2000 and esha exit both are very effective in my experience. I would be reluctant to stop treatment as what doesn't kill a parasite makes it stronger! However your corys are clearly sensitive to it. Question is do you risk another dose or do you abandon it? That is something you will have to decide but if you do dose make sure you are around to observe the tank for a good few hours and make sure the airation is maxed. As far as the molly goes keep an eye on it but as you are using protozin there is very little you can do but wait and see. Another plus of the esha remedies is they can be used together treating just about everything going. Copy this link into your browser and you can take a look at the treatments there I have found these remedies safe with most sensitive fish. http://www.eshalabs.com/ |
| 26-03-2007 13:22 by AndreaC |
Hi Alan and thanks.
Your question is now my dilema. Do I continue or not. I keep looking at tank and bottle but darent do it, then just leaving it worrys me as much
esha 2000 and esha exit, I have never come across these in Nottingham, are they only available at certain places?? cant figure out why white spot has broke out. The tank has been settled for a while now and waters are great Nothing new added to tank. |
| 26-03-2007 13:51 by AndreaC |
ok, ive took the plunge and I added the dose. With in a matter of minutes the corys behaviour changed. They went staright into a group together and huddled at back of tank, now there constantly going up for gulps of air and then huddling again?? Am I being para?? Should i just observe a while longer or what?? |
| 26-03-2007 14:48 by Alan |
The protozin by the sound of it has reduced the disolved oxygen in the tank.
As far as obtaining the esha remedies goes you may have to get a shop to order them in but it is well worth it and they are dirt cheap and highly concentrated to they come in 20 ml bottle which is enough to treat several hundred gallon fish tanks. I always try and keep a bottle of esha 2000 handy as this will deal with most things and if spot appears I use esha exit. Find a good LFS and ask if they can get these treatments in for you you will not be dissappointed by the results with these. Watch the corys closely if they start to get any worse carry out a partial water change protozin is not very stable and will breakdown very quickly it just depends how long the corys can take it but when in doubt play it safe and carry out a partial water change. |
| 26-03-2007 15:00 by AndreaC |
Thanks again Alan.
I will ask a LFs about the meds you mentioned. So far the corys arent as bad as yesturday, im keeping a real close eye. I have sent water life an email about this and the reply I got said that they treat all there corys that come in with protozin and have never had anything like that happen or a reaction. Also said to give them the lot number off the bottle and they will take a bottle off the shelf with same number and test it on theres, he said if they are re acting then an alternative is Octozin
Ive replied sending what part of the Lot number I could read as the bottom part is badly misprinted, I said I can send a photo of it if they like. Will see what comes of that. *sigh* I dunno, things were going really well then something always has to prop up  |
| 26-03-2007 15:08 by Alan |
Careful stock suggestion is the key the mollies were not an ideal choice and the rams are typically poor quality due to inbreeding but you will learn. |
| 26-03-2007 16:39 by AndreaC |
Why arent mollies ideal?? I thought they were good starter fish? The 2 mollies I started with are still ok, not had a problem with them, its the new one and she is only flicking a little, every now and then.
The Ram, yeh I did research on them and then asked advice on here also if i should get them as was offered them free off a friend who is closing tank down. Members on here gave me thunbs up and said get them, no one mentioned then about poor qaulity. was after I heard several comments Mind you this ram is proving a tough cookie.
What suggestions of stock would you recommend? Just out of curiosty, that are easy fish  |
| 26-03-2007 16:40 by AndreaC |
Sorry when I said new mollie I meant the newest of the mollies, not brand new to tank lol. |
| 26-03-2007 19:42 by bluboy |
i always add full dose with my corys. ooooops |
| 26-03-2007 21:21 by AndreaC |
Right another update. A few hours have passed since adding that dose today and now they seem to have settled and rumaging around as normal on bottom, though stilling going up for air more than usual? Only 1 isnt back to normal, that 1 is still crammed under the cave in the teeniest space and hasnt budged yet. Will see how that one is in morning. |
| 26-03-2007 23:50 by Jim Son |
the problem with ESHA is thats is very weak. Its almost like a herbal remedy in many cases. By all means try it, its very safe, you could practically tip in a whole bottle to a small tank of new-born fry and there would be no problem |
| 27-03-2007 09:27 by Alan |
In my experience this is not a weak remedy it is highly concentrated and do not over dose at all.
If you read the instructions fully there are various doses depending on what you are treating. Esha is not a herbal remedy I am not sure of the exact contents but they contain either formalin (formaldehyde solution) or malachite green or perhaps both. I have also found esha works better than other remedies certainly it is the best lot of remedies that I have used within the last 15 years or so. I will use nothing else. |
| 27-03-2007 10:37 by AndreaC |
Great news, the corys are all ok, even the litle one has come out of hiding so that last dose didnt kill them off
Now then. Due to me giving to the 1st 2 doses and having to do a 50% water change then managing to keep the whole 3rd dose in, how do I carry on from here? If the course hadnt been interfered with The last dose should be on thursday with none today or tomorrow. The shops here dont sell Esha Will have a look on ebay but that pays by echeque and takes upto 2 weeks to clear and recieve.
Thanks for all the advice and help. Im so relieved there all ok. |
| 28-03-2007 00:55 by ToddsTropicals |
never had any probs treating with protozin myself and we have treat all sorts of fish with it, people have different experiences and sometimes put it down to the medicine but sometimes a fish has gone too far and dies and you put it down to the med? i dont know but i do know that protozin has never let us down |
| 28-03-2007 10:14 by Alan |
I think a lot is also dependent on the age of the set up the older the set up typically the more detritus in the set up and this detritus will effect the quantity of treatment needed to succesfully treat fish equally bacteria will live in this detritus drawing on the oxygen in the water. Typically these remedies will reduce disolved oxygen so as a consequence oxygen levels drop to a level not ideal for fish and probably cause the losses.
Andrea can you give me a breakdown of tank size and current stock. Mollies are not ideal as they are really a brackish water fish they rarely thrive as well as they would in a brackish set up on often succumb to fungal infection or white spot it is actually possible to keep mollies in full blown marine tanks I have heard they make fantastic grazers and often in marine tanks they will achieve their maximum size of 4" in length. As far as the ram goes you have a tough one you didn't buy it from a shop so presumably it was already getting on a bit and has not suffered as a result of the inbreeding in singapore or where ever they are bred. The reason I say they are a bad choice is that they require acidic water conditions comparable to discus and also require exceptionally good water quality as well as the fact it is very difficult to find good quality rams these days. Anyway post tank size including length width and height and current fish and I will cobble together some suitable easy fish. |
| 28-03-2007 12:28 by AndreaC |
Right I will update 1st to start with. The fish are all doing well. Corys are brill again. The white on the molly was baffling me to what it was so I netted her and took her out to find it was a tuff of filter wool lol. God knows how it was in main tank unless I had a bit stuck on my hand when putting it in? I pulled it off and she is actualy fine
The Ram I have I think isnt to old. When I got him he didnt have much colour and its now coming out lovely, also wasnt as big (grown some since ive had him!) Hes a great fish and always active, Infact he seems to really of taken to my white molly and where ever she goes, he follows lol. Right tank, this tank is: Length 5ft (60") Depth 1f (12") Height 1 1/2ft (18") Stock: 10 neon tetras 3 mollies 1 ram 4 cory pandas 3 penguin tetras Not sure how much room is left to add more to that size tank?? I do have a 2 foot tank set up aswell with 7 neons, 4 more corys and 2 more penguin penguins which if there is space I would like to add to main tank ?
Anyway, main tanks stats are: Amonia: 0ppm Nitrite 0ppm Nitrate 20ppm Planted with amazon swords, java moss and cury twisted valls. Toddstropicals. The corys werent sick until the protozin added and they reacted very fast. Someone has mentioned about a use by date on it, even though I bought it with in the last month I checked and to my surprise there isnt a use by date on the box or bottle
Hope this info helps. There ude the last dose tomorrow and im getting pretty anxious about adding it. The white spots have gone off the ram and none have come back. The flicking has stopped altogether now aswell. |
| 29-03-2007 14:31 by Alan |
4x1x1.5x6.25 = 37.5 imperial gallons.
With the type of fish you are stocking you could go up to 112.5" of fish but I would go with 75" as your maximum. You have about 30" of fish in there at the moment. I would add 7 more penguin tetras get a shoal they will be much happier. That leaves about 40" of fish to go after boosting the number of penguin tetras. Keeping the fish small I would go for the following. 4 ghost catfish nice peaceful shoaling oddball you can see straight through them. they will add up to about 12" in total 10 hatchet fish (only if you have a tight fitting lid) they will equal about 10" Now this is really something to think about carefully you have one ram they tend to do better in groups and you have a long tank that could accomodate them if they pair up. So consider adding 5 rams to the tank providing you are happy that the condition of them is good and they are all of good weight. If you do this consider placing a lot of bogwood in the tank this will release a lot of tanins turning the water slightly brown it will also promote more acidic water for the rams which they prefer/need. About 10". Otherwise I would suggest this ram remains the only cichlid in the tank as it will not tolerate bullying of any sort. Then I would look for a plec of some sort ancistrus would be best as these remain small perhaps a pair of bristle nosed ancistrus these remain small and frequently breed in captivity and they also provide some parental care so there is a good chance of young surviving there diet would need to be supplemented though I would periodically place some frozen potato in the tank. This is prepared by slicing the potato into a suitable size for the fish to consume within a couple of days. Then freezing it. To fedd with this all you need to do is defrost it under a hot tap and then drop it in the tank it will sink to the bottom and the ancistrus will eventually realise it is food give it time once they realise it is edible they will seek it out in the tank also the bogwood is essential for any type of plec. Personally I would complete the course of treatment the spot may be in its free swimming stage this is a time when the fish are not infested it is always best to complete a course of treatment if you can without harming the fish. Also feed a granular food that will enable feeding at all levels in the water column surface feeding is not normal for most fish and also offer brine shrimp or daphnia as well as boloodworm from time to time the fish will apreciate it. |
| 29-03-2007 14:33 by Alan |
Also with the ram try not to let the nitrate get any higher than 20 ppm they are very sensitive to nitrates. |
| 29-03-2007 14:37 by Alan |
Add more corys to. Once the tank is going well at the stocking level I have suggested you could potentially add another 35 inches of fish to take you up to 112.5 inches equivalent to 3 times the tanks volume in gallons only do this if fitration and airation is adequate and also only do this if you continue to keep small fish they produce far less waste than large fish and also demand less oxygen hence stocking at this sort of level is safe with small fish.
You could add a couple of flag tailed catfish latin name escapes me they are peaceful and interesting. |
| 29-03-2007 21:48 by Jim Son |
Alan, how realistic is it to keep nitrate below 20ppm just for Rams? and think about it, nitrate testing kits are notoriously unreliable anyway. I am sure Rams would be okay at higher than 20ppm, what if her tap water is 20+ppm like a lot of the country? |
| 30-03-2007 09:36 by Alan |
Rams are notoriously sensitive and do best in conditions typical for discus it is feasible to keep nitrate below 20 ppm when I kept a ray I managed it using tap water.
I also agree test kits are notoriously unreliable you just have to hope for the best with them and test your tap water and use that as the base line for the tank water I would suggest leaving the tap water to stand for a day or so to enable the chlorine to disperse before testing the waters nitrate level though. In addition if your tap water is bad you can use a nitragon to remove nitrate from the tap water these are rechargable to and you can also use pouches in the tank that will remove nitrate that again are rechargable in a saturated salt solution. It is surprisingly easy if you plan it carefully. |
| 01-04-2007 18:43 by AndreaC |
Hi thanks for all that info.
Wow where to start lol. I really wanted some hatchet fish but was terrified of them jumping out tank. Not when lid is on as its real tight and no way can eascape but more so when lid is off when doing tank maintanace. Ive been after small plecs for ages, my eyes on clown plecs L04 but none for sale around here and im weary about ordering them off ebay. Also no where in nottingham (I can get to) even sells bristle noses So still on the look out for these.
The Ram. Hmm Im reluctant to buy more due to poor qaulity of breeding ive heard alot about. I did have to but one sadly died not long after getting them both, I think it was the stress of the move poor thing. The remaining ram is a male and a togh guy, he has joined the mollie clan and hangs with them, they have accepted him aswell lol. Will definatly add more penguins though, was looking at some at weekend and they looked so tiny, didnt realise how much mine had grown lol. So I will move those out the 2 foot qaurenteen tank over to manin tank and work from your above list. Im lucky with nitrates, there always low and not once ever got above 20ppm, normaly stay below that. I finsihed the treatment on the tank and all seems good with them. I will leave it another week to make sure though. Looks like I caight it all on time which im pleased about. Just to add, I bought a different bottle of protozin and used that and the corys didnt react at all. I called waterlife and told them and they have asked I send that bottle to them for testing! So with things back to normal, I will give it a bit longer to make sure. Is it true hatchets are real jumpy and easly spooked. I would love some to occupy the top of my tank. Penguins are meant to be middle/top swimmers and mine are more bottom/middle lol, though there very playful and even play with the neons. Are Hatchets also schooling fish, how many minimum? |
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