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Home      Reply		Viewed: 586 -- Replies: 42
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Posted	Sunfish
17-04-2007 23:31 by big_steve	Hi everyone. This is my first post and im hoping someone can help me here. Ive been trying to find some information on various American sunfish. I "googled" the pumpkinseed earlier and a link sent me to this forum, and a thread about the most aggressive fish. The information i need is where can i purchase sunfish here in the uk? I have two in my pond which ive had for about seven years. There is a small (freindly) debate on wether these are pumpkinseed or green sunfish. I dont know where they came from, they just appeared in my pond about an inch long, seven years ago. They have lived there happily and very peacefully since. They are both extremely tame now and will take worms etc from my hand. Its very hard to find anyone who knows anything about them, thats why im glad i found this forum. (Its took me most of the past 7 years to find out what they are, no-one i know has ever seen them before) Any information on these wonderful fish will be greatly appreciated.
18-04-2007 07:39 by Richie10	You can't buy them anymore they are illegal, as you have already found out can live in our climate. As you know they are north american and eat other live things. They act very much like cichlids in breeding. Don't tell anyone in authority that you have them as they will destroy them, fact. Rich
18-04-2007 08:38 by PaddyD	Not quite 100 percent true - Most species are illegal in the uk without a specific licence, which I believe is very unlikely to be granted. I believe this is the case with both species you mentioned, but I dont know what the law says about fish that were legally held before the law came in. But some species are covered by a general licence this includes the banded sunfish Enneacanthus chaetodon and the everglades pygmy sunfish (I think). Theses probably would not survive the winter in the uk though. Regarding your fish Pumkinseeds were imported in larger numbers and would be the most likely candidate - and is a bit brighter generally in colour - both get to about a foot and can live to 15 - 20 years I would expect.
18-04-2007 08:45 by Linda Chenapa	.
18-04-2007 08:52 by Linda Chenapa	Try again
18-04-2007 08:52 by Linda Chenapa	Trying to post a pic, won't do it! Grrr
18-04-2007 08:53 by Linda Chenapa	At last, does it look like this?
18-04-2007 09:01 by Linda Chenapa	Lepomis gibbosus, pumpkinseed
18-04-2007 16:16 by big_steve	Yes thats the one Linda. Ive found out they are Pumpkinseeds by posting a pic on an American fish forum They really are handsome in the water with their erect fins and bright colours. If Pumpkins are in our waters, surely there is a possibility i can buy some more??? The only time they are in the least bit aggressive is when i dangle a worm in the water. They attack it like great whites after a seal, otherwise they are very peaceful and dont threaten any of my other fish at all. I keep koi, orfe, rudd, tench, goldfish, comets, shubunkins, and a few hybrids. None of them are bothered by the sunfish. Authorities...destroy my fish?...not if they want to keep both legs Thanks to all for the replies. much appreciated
18-04-2007 18:59 by Linda Chenapa	They look like a cross between a cichlid and a perch. I've got 2 of them, the picture is of the smaller one.
18-04-2007 19:43 by big_steve	Linda, where bdid you get your Pumpkinseeds? I would love to get some more!!!!!!!!
18-04-2007 21:29 by Linda Chenapa	We were given them as part of a fish rescue that we did, I will try and find out where they got them from.
18-04-2007 21:49 by big_steve	That would be fantastic. Would you like me to pm you my email address?
18-04-2007 23:47 by paul stevens	big_steve@pumpkinseed.co.uk
19-04-2007 01:03 by Kribman	I live in Chicago (coming out now) and I kept four green sunfish in a 120 gallon tank. They setup a complex pecking order n the tank and tore the littlest one to shreds. It is legal in illinois to kep them because the just count as a fish caught and kept. If you can get your hands one some (do they exists in the UK?) they wll make an excellent dislay with some lillies and elodea
19-04-2007 08:17 by big_steve	Thanks Paul Hi Kribman. Pupmpkinseeds were introduced to the UK in the 1800's but conservationists have been removing them They are found in the Sussex Ouse. Anglers see them as a novelty but the enviroment agencies hate them. They dont cause any problems there so i think they should be left alone. Just my humble opinion, but then again i am biased Gorgeous little fish
19-04-2007 08:26 by PaddyD	Big steve - from what I can see. Pumkinseeds do need an individual licence for you to keep them. Also if a dealer was to sell them they would need a licence for this. Info can be found here: http://www.defra.gov.uk/fish/freshwater/nonnative.htm#SPECIES http://www.practicalfishkeeping.co.uk/pfk/pages/show_article.php?article_id=106 Application forms: www.efishbusiness.co.uk/formsandguides/ILFA1.pdf
19-04-2007 09:37 by big_steve	Thankyou PaddyD. Thats a massive help. The only thing im worried about now is that if i apply for a licence, and im turned down, what happens to my beloved fish?
19-04-2007 10:19 by Woz	dont tell them about the ones you all ready have
19-04-2007 10:54 by Linda Chenapa	From the web site: What do I need to do? If the species you keep or want to keep is covered by a general licence, as a fishkeeper you won't need to do anything - other than keep the fish responsibly. However, the shop that sells you the fish must first apply for and be granted a special licence in order to legally sell the fish. If you already own one of the species which is not covered by a general licence, you'll need to contact Defra to apply for one.
19-04-2007 16:36 by big_steve	Linda. I have just phoned Defra and they are no longer issuing licences for Pumpkinseeds. They are ALL to be destroyed Like hell, anyone comes near my fish with a view to hurting them gets 18 stone of tattooed skinhead on them. (thats the wife by the way)
19-04-2007 19:46 by paul stevens	Yeah and the old man is a 8 stone little creep and a head like a pumpkin....
19-04-2007 20:50 by Jessica	big steve, whats the number for defra?
19-04-2007 21:08 by Linda Chenapa	Defra 020 7238 5931
19-04-2007 22:01 by big_steve	Try this Jessica CEFAS Weymouth Laboratory, Barrack Road, The Nothe, Weymouth, Dorset, DT4 8UB. Tel: 01305 206673/4 Fax: 01305 206602 Website: www.efishbusiness.com
19-04-2007 22:11 by keith t	Ive delivered there once and its an *** of a place to get a lorry in, tighter than telboy
19-04-2007 22:34 by Jessica	thanks alot guys nd girls
20-04-2007 07:53 by Richie10	As I said, Sunfish, unless banded etc which wouldn't live in our water are illegal and will be destroyed if found. The list of fish we cannot keep have just grown and grown, the chance of getting licences is low.
20-04-2007 15:17 by Alan	As far as I understand it its only a handful of licences that have been issued and in most cases for study only.
20-04-2007 16:55 by big_steve	I know all about the danger to our native species etc etc, but at the end of the day, who gives these ar**holes the right to play god and kill innocent animals? The fish didnt ask to be introduced here!! My wife is American and we have produced 3 kids. Would the authorities like to take her away for invasive breeding in an alien country? I was reading that in the USA, certain types of Garfish are considered a nuisance. When caught, the fishermen snap off their beaks and throw them back to die What gives them the right to do that??? And as for Sharks caught, de-finned for soup, and thrown back still alive....dont even get me started on that one...... Id like to cut off the offenders arms and legs and throw them into the sea. Humans can be evil swines....rant...rant...etc etc.
20-04-2007 17:27 by Jessica	agreed, tbh i have very strong opinions about shark finning, but it looks nothing will change humans ways atm. First we all have to stop eating shark/shark fin soup etc But tbh, is this really any different from the fish caught so far down in the sea, and brought so fast up, that there eyes are popping out of there head and then brought out to suffacate and die? Nope.
20-04-2007 18:58 by big_steve	Please guys and girls, dont take offence here, but in general i think humans are horrible. I look at things from both sides but people tell me im being pathetic when i give opinions like.... Horse racing, chuck a small horse on a jockeys back, whip him 'til he jumps fences and runs flat out for minutes at a time. Fishing, drag a fisherman up from 100ft underwater with a hook in his mouth. Bring him aboard with a gaff hook and leave him laying on the boat floor with the bends and bleeding to death. Extreme opinions perhaps, but we do no different to these animals. If an animal is farmed for food, the kill is quick and humane but people who use animals for sport pi*s me off with their lack of respect and compassion for living, breathing things.
20-04-2007 23:19 by Jessica	the weird thing is, the more time you spend with cruel people like this, it tends to make your opinions change or, a much better phrase used, you develope a lack of respect, or lose at least some for these animals. I'll probably have people arguing that nothing can change your opinion or make you not respect something etc but if you have an opinion (yet not a strong one) on a subject, and an open mind anyway, and you spend time with people that dont care for animals, you will find people usualling degrade these situations. Big steve, I wonder what your view on keeping fish is then, could you consider that cruel. Not just fish keeping, but pet keeping in general?
21-04-2007 00:00 by big_steve	I consider keeping a fish in a bowl or small tank cruel but keeping fish in a pond or good sized tank is fine. As long as you give them a varied and healthy diet and an environment thats pleasant for them there should be no issues with unhappy fish. I maintain that opinion for any pets. I have a large 7yo ginger tom cat called Dillon. He isnt treated like a child but he is treated well. He eats the usual cat food (only cheap stuff for some reason, he turns his nose up at the top brands) but he also has tuna, fresh ham, chicken etc etc regularly. He's groomed, fussed when hes in the mood, taken to the vets if he needs a jab, and comes and goes as he pleases. He is a very big strong cat with a long shiny coat and rarely has any health issues. I just take it for granted thats how a cat should be treated to keep it happy and healthy. A pet is a commitment and they rely on you, the owner, for their health and general well-being. If you (not you personally you understand) cant commit to a pet then you shouldnt have one. Keeping pets is cruel if you dont look after them, otherwise its fine. Just my opinion
21-04-2007 00:50 by Jessica	I mean deeper than that though. Do you not conisder taking them from the wild or not leaving them where its best for them, cruel and unjust? I mean. any tank is too small really (Btw- if anyone feels the need to have ago at me for this - DONT, as some of you have already had a go at me for expressing my opinion and assumed that I am obviously not a fishkeeper or I'm contradicting myself..I'm not, Im just expressing a view ) I mean come on.. to live your life in something as unatural as rectangular (in most cases) tank with sharp corners, filters, heaters that you can burn yourself on (in unprotected cases) air pumps etc, Its all abit unatural. I can talk because I do keep 2 tanks myself, Its just a thought/opinion that has emerged and I'm looking deeper into it. Surely taking animals freedom is just about the cruelest thing a human can do, because we feel we have the right? This is sjust merely the cruelty they suffer on a day to day basis that is, there life? or do you feel it cant be because you keep animals? (Not having a go btw, as exactly the same could be said for me ) - I'm just interested
21-04-2007 10:14 by big_steve	You are right jessica!! Taking freedom is cruel, no two ways about it. I know theres absolutely nothing we can do about that. But after a fish has been thrown in a tank with countless others (in a shop) just so we can choose one, surely a larger tank with as much natural planting and substrate as you can manage will seem like paradise in comparison to what the poor sods have been through. Yes, i agree that wild animals should stay wild. But if they are to be held in unplanted, clear tanks, give them a healthy happy home when you buy them. If you have a 24" tank, dont buy an african lungfish, stick to small community fish etc. Fish are used here as an example, but i have a friend who has an iguana. Its kept in a room which was a small outside toilet before the house was modernised. All this poor thig has is a few small branches and a heater. Its always a very pale green and shows little interest in the food its given. Animals that grow as large as these need space to climb and hunt naturally. I hate seeing birds in cages that can hardly spread their wings. My cockateils were kept in a large aivery. (This was before i was married with kids ) They lived to be a ripe old age, they were 12yo or so when i got them from an old lady who lost her husband and couldnt clean up after them. They would do better in the wild, but after living in a cage for 12 years, a new aivery must have seemed like heaven. I suppose im basically saying, the poor things have been imported, posted, thrown around in delivery vans etc. At least give them a large healthy happy home to live out their days.
21-04-2007 13:56 by Jessica	yeah agreed. I can also relate to the iguana subject, as I do have an adult one, we are currently convverting our last spare bedroom for her, but she gets the run of the house mostly tbh, she only sleeps in her tank, or goes in to heat up again.
23-04-2007 09:31 by Alan	I had a religious nut knock at my door once trying to make me believe in god, not a chance I'm afraid. Any way she showed me this leaflet wherer humans were living in harmony with all other animals there was even a kid on the front playing with a lion I asked her if she really thought the picture on the front was a possibility and she said yes to which I said do you not understand that the human race has more in common with a virus than a mammal to which she was a little perplexed. So I explained that the human race is the only species to manipulate nature and to use its resources and move on to another area to remove that areas resources what other animal on the planet destroys and moves to another host answer none but virus are pretty awful to their hosts hence my analogy. She then asked how do you think the world could be made a better place so I said simply the extinction of the human race. She responded isn't that a bit extreme do you not think God could help. To this I said all God helps with is giving religious zxealots the excuse to blow each other up in the name of God and the world would be a better place without any Gods or religion. To this she said Gods arms will always be open to you I think she thinks I'm going to Hell!
23-04-2007 09:40 by Alan	Talking on the animal fanatics front here just curious about people views on the polar bear hand reared in a zoo in Germany. Do you agree with the animal rights fanatics demanding the death of this captive bred and raised bear if so why? Or do you think good on them for taking the care and time to carefully raise this endangered species and as the bear has only known captivity is it really that wrong to have such a large human influence in its life? Personally I think all animal right campaigners should be refused any medical treatment on the grounds of the demonisation of those involved in testing drugs on animals and also strung up for all the mindless attacks on animals owned by the supposed hunt supporters. For a time it was not uncommon for animal rights nuts to attack horse at night at various riding stables these horses being owned by pleasure riders in all likelihood many of which would not have been hunt supporters. How does an animal right hypocrite justify harming an animal? Anyway rant over it is Monday morning after all good on you Jessica for expressing your views.
23-04-2007 09:45 by Alan	My opinion of Defra's stance on the keeping of these fish annoys me greatly. I do not know why they cannot advise on how the fish need to be kept in order to qualify for a licence instead of just going in and barbarically culling the fish, it is totally out of order, equally there are serious questions to ask about the validity of many of the fish on the dodgy list, some of which cannot breed in this country as it is too cold so they pose very little risk the hi fin shark being an example of this, latin name escapes me. Having said that all this is done to protect native species but I honestly think the priority is in the wrong place protecting the habitat should be a greater priority than preventing invasive species being introduced.
23-04-2007 21:56 by Jessica	Thanks Alan, I'm glad you appreciated my view. Those people who knock at your coor to make you believe in God make me laugh. They are so contradicting to themselves. Do they really think God (if there is one) wants them to spend their time lieing about him etc? Nopesh. I cant wait for the next ones to knock, my mum couldnt get rid of them last time so I will like to have some contradicting discussion with them Anyways back to the subject 23-04-2007 09:40 by Alan Talking on the animal fanatics front here just curious about people views on the polar bear hand reared in a zoo in Germany. Do you agree with the animal rights fanatics demanding the death of this captive bred and raised bear if so why? No. Not up on this issue whatsoever, never heard of it but from what you've said I disagree with them. Who are THEY to kill an animal which has created NO PROBLEM as of yet let alone an endangered species. What is their problem? Why do they want to kill this animal? Because for absolutely no reason at all, theyre simply not happy with endangered animals being hand reared? They are more interested in what they have control over or are losing control over, rather than animals welfare. Dont get me started on DEFRA, Why do they feel the need to kill an innocent animal when there are PLENTY of people who can care for these properly. What is so wrong with keeping this species. So are they actually saying it is better and 'kinder' to the animal to kill it, than leave it in the hands of somebody who might well care for it properly, expecially given good advice?
24-04-2007 09:46 by Alan	Defra's angle is protecting british ecosystems at whatever cost basically so I do understand where they are coming from so if sunfish are in a pond they will want to be pretty satisfied that if there is a flood for example the fish will not escape. Personally I think Defra would get greater compliance if they issued more of these licences and took a stance of educating owners rather than legislating owners I have some experience of the officious stance as compared to the educator stance and it is the latter in my experience that gets greater compliance. If people fear they are going to get the big stick approach they will keep their gob shut. I wouldn't blame the Civil Servants that have to do this though blame the system not them. The basics of this case of the polar bear cub in Germany is that it was born in captivity and rejected by its mother the animal rights fanatics view is we should is the zoo should have allowed nature to take its course which to a point is a valid question to ask should the zoo have allowed nature to take its course the mother presumably must have rejected it for some reason. But does that really give justification for the calls to cull an animal that has only known captivity it has no concept of the wild and whilst it is genetically programmed to eat seals and even to catch whales (small ones I might add and you have to see it to believe it truly an amazing if not a little grim sight) but it has never seen itsa natural environment to this little polar bear it is in its natural environment right now the zoo and its handlers are all it knows and to be honest the pictures of this bear that I have seen are showing quite a content little bear and for the parents to have bred in captivity in the first place says something quite impressive about how the bears are kept in captivity. But for these fanatics to send death threats I mean what the h e ll are they on absolute nutters they are. By all means express a view about not meddling with nature but to send death threats about this little bear to the zoo is just lunacy.
24-04-2007 20:57 by Jessica	The zoo isnt meddling with nature. Is being kept in an enclosure of any sort even IF beneficial natural? So its really not a valid argument made by the so called 'animals rights fanatics' they should start thinking about more important and valid veiws such as zoo's etc. The truth of the matter is, the polar bear was born in a zoo, is this the baby bears fault? Where is THIS animals right?

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