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| Posted | identifying Koi varieties |
| 22-10-2007 16:46 by Wezj |
is it possible to identify whether koi are japanese, israeli or any other origin within seconds of looking at them in a pond.
sorry if this is a silly question but i'm a virgin koi keeper. |
| 22-10-2007 17:13 by Linda Chenapa |
What does it matter where Koi came from? You pay for the 'name' when buying Japanese fish. I agree with the writer of the article on this web site
http://www.pond-doctor.co.uk/longkoidifferentorigins.html  |
| 22-10-2007 17:14 by Linda Chenapa |
Sorry, forgot to say no it is not pooible to tell in a few seconds. |
| 22-10-2007 17:14 by Linda Chenapa |
oopppps! 'possible' |
| 22-10-2007 19:54 by Ed |
Linda are you saying a koi that costs £100.000 and one that costs £50 you cant tell the difference just asking as i am no expert in cold water ? |
| 22-10-2007 21:13 by nigel.chenapa |
we are lucky enough to have a couple of the well known koi shops on our door step, they say that you can tell a jap fish from english and isralie by the shape of the body. i personaly would not be able to tell and i have kept them for 10 years.we had a local koi shop very well known that i and god knows how many other people have spent £££££££££ on koi all from japan, or so we thought , turns out most of there fish were not jap even 3-4" fish £50 +,they were eventualy done for it and went out of business. so for people spending thousands on a lot of koi. then it must be hard to tell. personaly i buy what fish i like the look of and dont care where they come from. |
| 23-10-2007 09:04 by D.R. |
There is no such thing as a silly question Wezj
To generalise the differences between Jap and Israeli would be too much of a grey area. Sometimes you can recognise certain traits from a particular breeder or region. Usually the Jap stock are of better quality because the Japanese breeders cull much higher percentages. This means that only the creme de la creme get through to market. The Israeli market does have an equally high standard of fish available. It does seem to be more quantity based than quality. Plus, lower stocking densities of Jap fish in clay ponds, accompanied with a warm and cold seasons in Japan, gives a slightly chunkier fish. A warmer climate of Israel just casues growth spurt throughout the year, therefore less storing of food reserves, again "generally" speaking they tend to be more slender in body. This is not a definitive answer, as fish growth and shape also depend on diet composition, genetics too. Personally speaking if people raise Koi here in the UK regardless of Parentage.......... I would rather buy these than imports. Fish raised in our climate are more acclimatised to the seasonal change and more hardier to our water conditions. |
| 23-10-2007 13:01 by Wezj |
thanks to everyone that has responded as your input is very much appreciated.
the reason i have asked the question is is that i have recently inherited a pond and 17 koi as part of a house purchase and i was keen to try and identify the fish i had, i was originaly matching them by varieties i found on the internet but a friend of mine said he knew someone who had kept koi and would be able to help me, as i was told he had spent £11000 on a new pond not so long ago(not including fish) i assumed him to be an expert. he came to look at them on sunday and within seconds told me they weren't japanese but looked like israeli, malaysian and chinese and that majority were ghost koi, including one i had identified as a yamabuki ogon, as he came to this conclusion very quickly i am a bit sceptical about his knowledge of koi and his assesment. does any one have any views on what he said or know of a better way to identify them. if it helps i have uploaded a picture i took of them.  |
| 23-10-2007 14:13 by -Rob C- |
Japanese are generally better quality as D.R. says. That's why you pay more.
It's not easy to tell just by looking, but generally good looking quality koi are Japanese, but there are some Israeli koi that are good quality, and there's even quality English koi now. |
| 23-10-2007 19:55 by nigel.chenapa |
fish in your pic, they are not ghosts. to it looks like 2 yellow ogons, 1 gin rin orange ogon,1 matsubba and posibly a asagi. the black & white fish i think is a shiro ----- ( something )also the fish on the far right but i dont know the name i will try to find out. where they are from dose not realy matter are you going to keep them ? ,they are not that much work to keep them. |
| 23-10-2007 20:36 by -Rob C- |
The small orange and white one, is kohaku by the looks of it, but if it has any black on it it'll be a sanke.
Not sure on wether they're Japanese, how old are they? (Generally Japanese koi are quick growers, but it's not a given rule by any means) If you google koi varities there should be plenty on what's what. |
| 24-10-2007 09:22 by Wezj |
i am planning on keeping them but i'm not sure whether winter is the best time to start learning, i guess there's only one way to find out.
i had the black and white one down as a shiro utsuri, not sure what the one is that is swimming under it, is that the one Nigel is referring to as an asagi?, the one next to that i thought was a Kujaku  not sure bout the whiter one at the top or the two down the right as i couldn't any comparisons.
take a look at the beauty below not sure what the one underneath the tail end is either
 |
| 24-10-2007 09:36 by Alan |
I've kept virtually every family of fish going that is suitable for the home aquarium or pond over the last 20 years and to be honest I have still never grasped all this odd names.
The important thing is they look healthy and as far as value goes they are only worth as much as someone is willing to pay for them. Chances are you probably do have some ghost carp in there most ponds have them. I do apologise to the koi die hards I'm afraid I just don't get it! Yes a pond with koi would be great but what is the obsession with Japanese koi, koi are koi if you ask me whereever they come from. |
| 24-10-2007 10:35 by -Rob C- |
Alan I think it's part snobbbery, and part wanting to keep quality fish that you know have been bred by experienced breeders.
My dad has a koi pond, all but one of his koi are Japanese and they're all stunning fish. There are good koi from other places, but Japan is generally the best. |
| 24-10-2007 13:07 by Wezj |
to be honesst Alan i'm not that bothered if they're Japanese or not i only wanted to know what variety they are, i tend to become a bit of an anorak with things like this and feel i have to know everything about them.
it was the speed of the blokes assesment that made question his knowledge and what he was telling me and by the sounds of it i was right in doing so. Rob i'm not sure how old they are as i was left no information by the previous owner. does any one know what the big fat one is co this is one i'm really struggling to identify  |
| 24-10-2007 19:42 by nigel.chenapa |
yes the fish under the black and white one i think is the asagi, the big one i think may be a mizuho ogon but i cant be sure , we had one the same went 24lbs was valued at £2000 as she won a couple of shows . .the big black one i think is a magoi.
the best book i know of is the KOI CHIE book about £25 new cheaper on e-bay. you can buy food that you feed all year round but i stop feeding in the cold weather, but by now you should be feeding wheatgerm as it is easyer for the fish to digest.you dont realy do anything in the winter , clean the filters now , divert the water if it gets back into the pond by a waterfall just bypass the waterfall back into the pond as it chills the water to much and cover pond if you want to. |
| 25-10-2007 16:02 by Wezj |
i'm currently using spring/autumn food from nishikoi, should i still be feeding them with that? what do you class as cold weather to stop feeding them.
i've spotted the the mainly black fish with the yellow head in the picture above has, what looks like mould growing on its nose and a similar spot on its side, any idea what it could be and what i need to do to treat it |
| 28-10-2007 15:57 by nigel.chenapa |
sorry been fishing. koi feeding.
Koi Feeding Guide A Koi's metabolism functions best at temperatures above 70° F. High protein foods are difficult to digest when the water falls below 65° F. However, Koi still need sufficient carbohydrates for energy when water temperatures are low. This is particularly true for Koi less than 1 year old. Squash, bread, peas, citrus fruits, and watermelon are good sources of carbohydrates. Never overfeed your fish! Koi do not have a stomach. Feed smaller quantities more frequently for better nutritional absorption. Feed only as much as the fish will eat in about 3-5 minutes. Koi pellets should be fresh and used within three months to prevent oxidation of the food. Water Temp. (°F.) Feeding Frequency Food Type Less than 50ºF. Do not feed Koi. Temperatures at 50° F. of more than one month may require supplemental feedings of low protein and high carbohydrates. 50-55ºF 2-3 times a week if Koi are hungry. High carbohydrate, low protein, laxative type foods. Wheat germ, Cheerios®, squash, lettuce and brown bread. 55-59ºF 4-5 times per week if Koi are hungry. Add low protein (25%) pellets along with vegetables. Increase quantities gradually as temperature increases. 59ºF Once per day six days per week. Low protein (25%) pellets along with high carbohydrate vegetables and fruit. 60-65ºF Once per day every day. Gradually increase protein in pellets (35%) and quantity of pellets. Vary diet with vegetables and fruit. 65-72ºF Once or twice per day. Bulk of diet should be 35% protein pellets. Add fruits, vegetables, and plankton for variety. 72-80ºF 3 to 4 times per day. High protein pellets (35% to 40%) with color enhancers. Add plankton, vegetables, fruits, and shrimp. sorry i copied this |
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