Home Adverts Recent Added Auction Scam Alerts Fishkeeping Forum List Your Ad ShopAds Videos
Tropical Fish Aquariums & Equip Marine Fish & Marine Inverts Cichlids Malawi Tanganyikan Cichlids
Wanted Discus Goldfish, Koi & Ponds Retailers & Services ALL ADS By County

Home      Reply		Viewed: 605 -- Replies: 52
PM | All Topics | General | Cichlids | Marine | Coldwater | Tanks/Equipment | Diseases | Members

Posted	Tank busters
01-11-2007 11:52 by Alan	In light of the current heated debate regarding the perruno how about a thread on the way you would keep tank busters. This should include working out sensible tank size for specific species and the like. I would do the following: Identify a species I want to keep and then on the basis of maximum size I would use the 6 times rule to work out how big the tank need to be for me to adequately keep the fish. For example: Silver Arowana Max potential size in the wild 1.2metres 1.2 x 6 equates to 7.2 metres long My width rule is 2 times the fishes max potential length so 2.4 metres. So I would only consider keeping an Arowana in a tropical tank at least 7.2 metres by 2.4 metres. This will probably sound like a lot to many arowana keepers but this is why I will not keep such a powerful fish as I cannot adequately accomodate it. I would also look at its natural behaviour including how it feeds social habits water parameters including flow rates and try and replicate this as far as possible. So with my example of a silver arowana I would want to do the following: I would want it to be able to jump as this is a natural part of the fishes behaviour whilst feeding on bugs from over hanging branches so I would be looking at more of a terrarium set up than a straight fish tank for such a fish so I would be able to provide a natural diet for the fish. This would involve marginal plants around the tank that over hang the water. The actual food may be a contentious one here many will say if you are going to this length to provide a natural habitat you must provide live foods with regards to crickets and the like then live foods are reasonable as there is no alternative to bugs moving around in the over hanging plants. However where there is an alternative to live foods it should always be offered so the diet I would give an arowana would be quite varied. I suspect I don't know for certain that they are an opportunist fish hunter I do not think fish will form the bulk of an arowana diet however it would make up part of the diet so I would offer a mixture of frozen fish or crustaceans as well as insects above the water line or on the waters surface the later being the bulk of the fishes diet. In a set up like this I would probably keep a group of silver arowana's as well whilst I do not believe they are shoaling fish in the strict sense of the term I suspect they are a social fish forming loose groups. As far as tank mates I would look for fish that would not be at risk of predation or injury from the arowanas perhaps something like an oxydoras niger or 2. I hope that gives an indication of the lengths I think people should have to go to in order to keep tank busters like arowana so commonly kept in a 6' x 2' x 2'
01-11-2007 12:03 by keith t	What will you do when you come down in the morning and found its jumped out of the tank
01-11-2007 12:32 by Alan	The design would allow it to jump safely.
01-11-2007 12:35 by drewie	would the same formula apply to a three inch goldfish swimming around in a bowl with a 9 inch diameter ?
01-11-2007 13:21 by Phill Austen	Sobering thoughts Alan, However, regrettable as it may be, many fishkeepers will not let the impossiblity of providing adequate conditions for the object of their desire, get in the way of possessing it. The greater part of the ornamental tropical fish trade is built on a false assumption that these animals can be adequately supported in a domestic hobbyist environment. Most of them in "communities" of individuals that would not tolerate the close proximity of each other, given the opportunity. Let alone the water parameters that they are subjected to.
01-11-2007 13:47 by Alan	Just for arguments sake phill how would you go about providing adequate space for a tank buster such as say hydrocynus vittatus that amazingly some one that used to post a lot on here use to keep. Hopefully if enough examples of how woefully inadequate in size most aquariums are for tank busters we may actually make one person think perhaps I shouldn't keep that fish after all. If just one person thinks I won't keep that at least we will have achieved something.
01-11-2007 13:54 by Alan	drewie broadly speaking with smaller fish the above guideline isn't really appropriate this is a guideline I use to determine the minimum reasonable for medium to large fish. To a point common sense also has to apply, a 3" goldfish has quite a significant bioload but by the 6 times rule the bowl would have to be 18" in diameter not 9", having said that though a 3" goldfish is small so the formula falls down at this point. For example a 1" long cardinal tetra wouldn't be happy in a tank 6" long and 2" wide would it. For fish that attain 12" and up the 6 times rule is reasonable as a means of establishing the minimum size of tank to enable the fish to move freely without smashing into the sides of the tank but again there are always exceptions Pangasius for example are open water fish so a rectangular aquarium however big is not really appropriate.
01-11-2007 14:17 by drewie	fully agree about the pangasius this for me is one of many fish that should no longer be imported because with the best will in the world i dont believe that you can ever provide an adequate tank for these fish
01-11-2007 14:22 by Alan	The only way to adequately house pangasius would be to put them in a huge cylinder this way they have no corners to smash into. If you think about the open ocean displays they often have at sea life centres these are invariably cylinders for just this reason.
01-11-2007 14:48 by tank busters	any reasonible sized tank buster should be kept in a tropical pond with maybe a raised pond with a veiwing window
01-11-2007 16:22 by drewie	i'm sure i'm not alone when i say i wish i had one of those
01-11-2007 16:29 by Lnrak	I would like one too - Probably a lot cheaper to build than an enormous cylindrical-tank too!!! Space has to be the factor as to why most people can't accomodate a large tropical pond
01-11-2007 17:18 by Danny Boy	i have to agree with alans rules. i would also add that in fact these fish would normally roam around in large volumes of water. i would say that the guidlines are a bare minimum. i also think that a large tank big enough for one large fish can potentially house a second or third large fish provided the water changes are regular and the fish compatible.
01-11-2007 17:32 by Woz	agreed
01-11-2007 18:42 by tank busters	friend of mine has trop pond with big cats and it looks good
01-11-2007 19:15 by big cats	fibreglass vat with a viewing window is great but it still needs to be big, a public aquarium near me has two silver arros in a tank smaller than the one suggested here ,in truth all aquariums are a compromise and it is noyt for us to say that a person should not keep a particular fish , i am sure many would give me a hard time regarding some of my current collection , but i am both aware of their ultimate needs and prepared to do my best to accomodate ( big vat with viewing window ,likely to take up half my garage??????)
01-11-2007 19:57 by Woz	where would you get a vat like that from then? im totally clueless, but after a huge tank for the future
01-11-2007 20:00 by drewie	it's a pity that shops don't follow the same rules because there's been no end of times that i've seen fish that are much too big for the tanks that they're being housed in and undoubtedly people see this as a green light to keep them in a tank at home that is equally as inadequate only last week i saw a 12 inch buttikoferi being kept in a 24x12x12 and i was informed that he would need a minimum of a four foot tank and the guy whose shop it was thought that it was good advice ???
01-11-2007 20:30 by Fry Lover	i agree with this thread, useful and thought provoking, but Alan, can we please dispense with metres, i dont know anyone that uses this in fish discussion, except you obviously size in feet be good!
02-11-2007 01:53 by Jessica	yeah i use feet too lol
02-11-2007 09:29 by Alan	I normally use feet but whats the point with fish that get over a metre long 1.2 metres is equal to 4 foot and I do normally use feet when talking about anything other than tank busters. Danny boy these guidelines I promote are the bare minimum. Here is a link to what I would consider suitable housing for tank busters take a look at the mega tank. http://www.freshwaterstingray.nl/Frames%20Engels/English.html
02-11-2007 09:57 by big cats	woz do you have a sea life centre near you? pop in and they will tell ya how you build one out of 1 inch marine ply and fibreglass??? its easy a guy posted how he did on monsterfishkeepers.com
02-11-2007 10:05 by Woz	nah i havent got one near, closest one is the one at hull and thats a good hour and half drive...ill try and find it on mfk
02-11-2007 15:53 by Alan	How jealous am I!
02-11-2007 15:54 by Alan	4 freight containers were used to build this 26,000 gallon tank each freshwater ray in here has a disc size of about 24"
02-11-2007 19:55 by Phill Austen	Sadly, Iwould make an educated guess that the cost of adequately housing these large fish ,pales into insignificance when compared to the running costs and sheer logistics of providing sufficient quality water for the water changes. Unless, maybe a recirculating sytem that uses Ozone to clean up!
03-11-2007 03:13 by Woz	no offence ment
03-11-2007 03:13 by Woz	nice tank, but surely id have something more than boring stringrays in it!
03-11-2007 10:00 by Danny Boy	someone mentioned the use of small tanks to house large fish in fish shops. while its not ideal the fish shops have to keep prices low to earn a living and if they did hold enough room for all of the fish they keep you would need a massive warehouse. simple matter is that those fish tend to move in to larger size tanks when they are sold on. only the inexperienced fish keeper will buy a large fish without researching the fish' requirements first.
03-11-2007 18:16 by tony	woz have u kept stingrays
03-11-2007 18:36 by tony	its the shops thats at fault for the tank busters they dont have to buy them from wholesalers
03-11-2007 20:50 by drewie	i agree with tony shops shouldn't buy such big fish in for general sale but i do understand that sometimes people take big fish in to shops because they can no longer keep them so i've probably just contradicted myself so i'll shut up now
03-11-2007 21:27 by Fry Lover	this thing about buyers researching the fish and its requirements is in an "ideal world" lets face it! Would be nice if that was the way, but i wonder what the percentage of peeps who buy fish in an LFS have researched their requirements thoroughly beforehand? Maybe 5% if that? It should be the way but it isn't and never will be. I am sure the majority of people who buy fish in an LFS dont have much more knowledge that the very basic of fish keeping if that. There's almost no point slagging off peeps who buy fish they dont research as its normal human behaviour. They walk into an LFS and something catches their eye and they buy it. They can buy it, and its normally very cheap, so they do. I dont like it, and many of you dont like it, but thats the way of the world. This leaves the onus on the LFS staff, but the problem is, there is no written or legal rule saying the LFS have to be proactive and ensure the buyer can meet the needs of the fish. I am a 32" waist for trousers. If i walk into River Island and buy x3 trousers at 38" waist, do you think the cashier is going to ask me "are you sure these trousers fit, are you sure they are going to meet your needs" of course they are not. They just gonna take the payment. You may think "but this is fish not clothes and real life", well, it doesnt seem to matter with fish does it, hence goldfish in bowls with no filter etc. In essence, i do agree with Tony, but at the end of the day he states "they dont have to buy them from the wholesalers" meaning the shops....... well the wholesalers dont "have to" sell them to the shops do they. The punters dont "have to" buy them. Who is at fault? no one thats who! And the reason no-one is at fault is that its probably impossible to argue successfully that anyone person is more respoonsible than the other in all this. The peeps who catch the fish from the wild or breed them, the whole-saler, the LFS, the buyer..... Let's face it, fish just aren't considered as "real" pets in many ways. To many people, keeping fish is a joke. I am sure many people view any type of fish (even a very expensive marine fish) as nothing more than a common Goldfish you win at a fun-fair. Come on, admit it, apart from us who have the "obsession" who understands about keeping fish? I say most if not all peeps who dont keep fish think it's ranging from pathetic, to bizarre, to weird, to just strange we keep these fish in tanks, in our homes. The RSPCA take action when they can get evidence of wrong doing with dogs and such, but what about fish?
03-11-2007 21:59 by tony	if the shops stop buying the large fish ie tank busters the whole saler would stop importing them so in my veiw it is the shops that are to blame for buying them
03-11-2007 22:17 by tony	i have a large heated pond and it cost around £400 to build its above ground built it to a shed i fully insulated shed sides roof floor with 2in poly and whent over the top of poly with the bubble wrap with the silver on one side the liner is a box welded butyl i got that trade large water butt 4 filter its running at 84 temp and at the moment its x2 150 watt halid lights keeping it to that temp i have a 2000 watt pond heater plumb in but not been on since the fill up size 8x5x4ft deep the only thing i regret is not using a blue liner as black is hard to photo fish due to 4ft deep
04-11-2007 12:51 by Fry Lover	sorry, my post isn't that relevant to the questions being asked by Alan perhaps, but somewhere, i think there is some use for my post on the thread I guess it's my contribution to this whole "who's at fault" sub-plot to keeping Tankbusters.
04-11-2007 13:28 by tony	the guy that owns the mega tank is a lucky guy and im jealous like u alan
07-11-2007 22:01 by commissar	so you all say its the shops fault even though a lot of shops do explain the needs of the fish they sell but due to human nature a lot of people will just tell the shop staff a pack of lies if they really want a particular fish after being told what it needs the shop i work in will not stock anything larger than an oscar to sell to the public and even then they are told they need a 100 gall tank min size if a customer wants anything bigger we are willing to order it it but after we have been and inspected the housing for it and if its not right we refuse to order it in so you see not all shops are to blame just the ones out to make as much money as they can no matter what also you say they should not be imported in but what about the people who do house them correctly if they wernt imported how would they get hold of them is it fare to say you cant have that fish as it grows 4 foot long even though you have a 20000 gallon pond to house it in no if so you may as well all just bow down to the likes of petra and ban the keeping of all fish as no tank can make up for a fishes natural habitat
08-11-2007 10:29 by Alan	I have never said the shops are at fault but they do have a part to play. I would question any shop that stocks tank busters as a matter of routine. The market to keep such tank busters is very small so in all likelihood these tank busters will not be housed in an adequately sized tank. Equally wholesalers have a part to play as they probably all obtain certain tankbusters as a matter of routine but ultimately it is down to supply and demand so if there is a market they will get these unsuitable aquarium fish in such as pangasius as a matter of routine. If you look at the bigger picture the aquarium industry is no different to any other it is straight supply and demand. So if shops are stocking tank busters there must be an unsuitable market for them so ultimately it is not the shops fault or the wholesaler it is the end buyer who is solely to blame for inadequate research on prospective purchases and the 'its just a fish attitude' with a complete failure to realise that tank busters are more of a commitment than a cat or a dog as many will live for over 30 years. We also cannot forget the tricks of fish exporters substituting ordered fish for something else the something else often being a potentially huge tank busting catfish the question is what should wholesalers do with such fish! In fact I think the blame primarily lies in 2 places the final consumer and the fish collector. There would be no demand for tank busters if fish collectors didn't collect them in the first place. This however is a debate that could go on and on. How about someone comming up with a suitable tank for the Asian red tailed catfish - Hemibagrus wyckioides. From memory I think it will hit the 38" mark possibly bigger. When coming up with a suitable tank think of its native habitat feeding habits behaviour (this is very important I suspect anything in the tank is a potential target for aggression including heaters filter pipes etc). It has a similar temperament to the wyckii but worse!!!
11-11-2007 08:07 by Phill Austen	How about a sort of circular trough, could be lashed up with two rings of plywood and a polythene sheet liner. The filtration could occupy the space in the centre, say two or three plastic barrels full of media and a good sized pond pump to push water into filter. Make return directional so that there would be a continual one way flow arround the trough. There you would have an environment for a spate water fish!
11-11-2007 09:21 by WAYNE	i didnt even read throught that how boring , if you having another go at boggy then you should see how others keep thier tank busters down this way boggy im getting 6 red bellies for my bi orb , and alan why do you always try to impose RULES i can buy 6 redtails and stick them in my bath if i want i dont have to have you permission of consent , every one just do what you want , you all care about fish otherwise you wouldnt go on a fish forum.......UNLESS,...... YOU SAD!
11-11-2007 09:29 by -Rob C-	Said with the intelligence of a five year old as always. Alan isn't having a go at Bruce, nor is he making rules. He's stating what he thinks is required to keep tank busters, I agree with him as do many others.
11-11-2007 10:00 by WAYNE	YOU , DANNY BOY AND ALAN ARE ALL THE SAME YOU SHOULD START UP YOUR OWN FORUM AS YOU ALL HAVE THE KNOWLEDGE OF DR. AXELROD AND BURGRESS , YOU ALL LIKE TO MOAN ABOUT EVERYTHING , YOU LIKE TO MOAN ABOUT MOANING , THATS WHY I CANT BE ARSED TO POST AS MOST OF THE ONES WHO ARE LEFT ARE A BUNCH OF MUPPETS
11-11-2007 10:39 by -Rob C-	Ok.
11-11-2007 15:22 by telboy	mee na ma na, doo doo da doo doo!
11-11-2007 17:55 by Big Rob	da ron ron ron
11-11-2007 19:27 by Nick G	Here's hoping that I'm in the minority of non muppets
11-11-2007 20:32 by drewie	i like being a muppet i'm all furry not so keen on the hand up my a*** though !!!!!
11-11-2007 20:33 by drewie
11-11-2007 21:23 by Nick G	You have a great catchy theme tune as well Drewie
12-11-2007 18:50 by drewie	what's green and smells of pork ?
12-11-2007 18:50 by drewie	kermits fingers
17-11-2007 10:43 by Nick G

Previous | Fish Biz | Sitemap | Links | All Ads | Clubs | Webmaster | Our Sponsors | ShopAds Visits