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Home      Reply		Viewed: 407 -- Replies: 24
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Posted	discus problem
10-12-2007 12:04 by CichlidRouse	i have several breeding pairs we can get the fry to about 1/2 inch in size(still with the parents) they seem to be feeding (liquifry3,beef heart and various flake food) when they get to about 1/2 in size we loose them(die) the water quality is spot on reg water changes etc...... we cant work out why they die help plzzzzzzzzzzz
10-12-2007 12:38 by Ray	At that age/size they should be feeding on artemia at least five times a day or more,water changes are very important aswell,one thing I have done is leave a light on the tank 24 hrs,this seemed to cut my mortality rate dramatically,could you tell me the time scale of your losses in days.
10-12-2007 12:51 by CichlidRouse	hi we seem to be loosing about 5/6 fry a day i will hatch out some shrimp over night and start feeding them straight away on shrimp they are feeding well on the above food's. will keep you posted on how they are getting on. thanks for your help!!!!!!!
10-12-2007 13:01 by Ray	Sorry I ment how many days old are the fry
10-12-2007 15:34 by CichlidRouse	they are about 20 days old
10-12-2007 15:49 by ChensDiscus	Gill flukes. Try treating the parents for gill flukes before they spawn the next time around.
10-12-2007 18:05 by Ray	didnt think of flukes I was going to sugest a bacterial infection from old food,at 20 days the diet you are using is fine
10-12-2007 19:14 by CichlidRouse	whats the best for treating gill flukes? thanks for the help!!!!
10-12-2007 21:20 by Ray	you can use Flubenol or Sera Tremazol
11-12-2007 11:16 by big cats	how long have you had your discus? do the parents show any signs of flukes ?are they wild caught? have you had to treat any other fish in your tanks for flukes? have you wormed your discus? what water quality checks do you carry out,and what were the results?
11-12-2007 13:13 by ChensDiscus	The problem you have is what some breeders call the "3rd week syndrome". It happens just after the third week where the fry start dropping like flies 5-10 a day or maybe more before it wipes out all the babies. This is the stage where the fry start developing its gills and being very small ans sensitive, cannot handly the flukes unlike their hardier parents. The best is to use praziquental as treatment(I am not sure if you can get them in the UK as I get mine from malaysia). The other alternative I have successfully used is giving the parents formalin "baths" before spawning. Hope this helps next time around.
11-12-2007 14:31 by big cats	mr chen i am sure you are mistaken you cant possibly have had unregistered medication brought into the uk because that that would be an offence
11-12-2007 14:38 by big cats	i believe fry develop gills a bit earlier than three weeks?, but until the fry reach a suitable size the flukes are too large to get in and hang on. the same can be said for any fish and it is not exclusive to discus .however this is not the only reason your problem can occur , and i would suggest using a microscope to see if there are any flukes before treating for them , it is a serious possibility given it happens to all your fry
11-12-2007 15:09 by ChensDiscus	big cats, I understand it is an offence if I get them for commercial and not for personal use. I never mentioned anywhere that I sell them as they are only for my personal use. You are right about checking the fry using a microscope. How many discus hobbist have access to a microscope??? So it might not be a viable option. Treating the parents using praziquental or formalin baths have worked for a lot of breeders both in the UK as well as in the far east, so I dont see any reason why that should not work now, unless the experts and breeders here as well as there do not know what they are doing. Oh, If you want to find the solution, just answer this question: why is it that discus fry, regardless of which country they are bred start dropping after 3 weeks??? I would say no more
11-12-2007 17:08 by Ray	big cats its not nice to accuse someone of using unregistered drugs it is a pity you do not know what you are talking about,this treatment is available from vets it is commonly labelled as Drontal another name is Prazi pro.
11-12-2007 17:53 by big cats	hey ray chill out it was a joke? cant you tell by the way it is written? and anyway if someone does import pharmaceutical products from another country then they may not be the same as ones prescribed legally by vets there is a huge difference and i am sure mr chen will not deliberately or knowingly break the law
11-12-2007 18:10 by big cats	i did say at the end of my comment that it is a serious possibilty they are having a problem with gill flukes and i am not saying you are wrong mr chen but i believe it is an assumption and is based on other peoples experience (and your own)so an educated assumption, but still just an assumption ,many fish have been treated with medication because of assumptions and we should try not to do so
11-12-2007 19:17 by ChensDiscus	big cats, I totally agree that fish should not be treated on assumption. I for one strongly dont recommend using chemicals and medications on these fish unless you are left with no other choice. But this is not assumption as i have a friend also belive that its GF, who lives in london and uses microscope to find out diseases in fish. I consider him to be one of the few real experts who have had discus for more than 40 years while compared to my 12. Also, During my trips I have spent loads of time with breeders and experts in the far east discussing about everything about discus. Infact, I have even spent a couple of days help them pack the fish for export. I think by saying that this is an assumption is like doubting their knowledge of the breeders there, not to forget reputed names like jeffrey tan, tony tan and likewise. I never said that the problem was something else other than gill flukes. I was just trying to say that the treatment suggested works to help clear gill flukes.
11-12-2007 23:47 by big cats	i am not having a conversation with breeders from far away lands and one can never doubt someones knowledge without taking the time to enter into a debate on the subject about said knowledge and i do not doubt the knowledge tony and his brother have.(not quite sure why you brought them into this ,i met status quo once but i still cant play guitar ) we are however debating an answer given - Gill flukes. Try treating the parents for gill flukes before they spawn the next time around. it is a direct and unbending decisive answer based on the fact that the fry die, without proof or diagnosis based on medical fact ,makes it an assumption in anyones terms ,it may be gill flukes and confirming this is advised before treatment (take one of the dead fry to a vet)i first bred discus 13 years ago and have kept some very tricky fish for twenty years in that time i have learned that assumption is the mother of all muck ups and information is paramount
12-12-2007 00:26 by ChensDiscus	If everything was based on diagnosis on medical facts, there will be no expert hobbist an any forum. Maybe we need to invite vets to reply to answers as any experts advice is of no use. I took my fish to the vet last week where I was supposed to get a medical certificate as I was exporting some fish to south africa. Trust me when I say this, he wore a gloves, moved the fish around (that was already sedated) and said everything was fine. Well had to pay £45 for consulting fees. I am not saying that the fish had problem, but I did not see him examining the fish in detail to see whether they were actually ok. Also, they were not just an ordinary vet, but quite a reputed company where they have loads of branches around london. Why would anyone want to visit a vet and pay them while they can get advice from experts free of cost?? Isnt that the reason for a forum, or maybe I am wrong!!!! Tony and jeffrey are not bothers, though they have the same surname I am not going to continue this discussion as I feel that I have made my point quite clear. I dont like getting into debates specially when the other party feel they are right. Sorry, thats the way I am I am not surprised and have now realised as to why some of the fish experts stay away from this forum
12-12-2007 00:52 by ChensDiscus	Also, whats the point on asking the below question whereas the answer would be an ASSUMPTION too!!!! "how long have you had your discus? do the parents show any signs of flukes ?are they wild caught? have you had to treat any other fish in your tanks for flukes? have you wormed your discus? what water quality checks do you carry out,and what were the results?" Whereas your post should have been "Take the dead fry to a vet as anyone who answers your post would be based on ASSUMPTION and not on medical fact"
12-12-2007 01:17 by robert.pope	Chen there are others on the forum that aprecate expert advise based on assumption ! I for one would take action based on information given by someone allready with experience in the specific area! im sure cichlidrouse would be happy to treat for GF if it ment saveing his baby fish i understand that as big cat says we should know what we are treating before we treat!!! at the end of the day we learn from others.....and i feel we need more dealers/experts willing to contribute
12-12-2007 10:08 by CichlidRouse	i have treated the tanks with flubunol(i cant speel) thanks for the answers i have treated the parents b4 with the above but thatwas over 8 weeks ago. this is a steep learning curve for me(and for the fish).if any survive i and they will have been lucky.i will try to look at the parents gills and see what colour they are(red i hope). if they survive next time round then i know it was flukes,if i have the same problem(and they have been treated for flukes)then i will start to look elsewhere(water problems?) the two tanks in question: ph 6.4 ammonia 0 ppm nitrite 0 ppm nitrate 50 ppm dh 3-4 temp 30 degrees c no visable waste on the tank base 3 filters in each tank(all air powered) lets hope that it is flukes and that some will survive
12-12-2007 19:29 by big cats	hi cichlidrouse,i am sorry if things have been distracted from your quest to save your fry, and robert i am sure you are right, treating for gf would be worthwhile, in my fishkeeping time(20 years) i have never had to treat for flukes, they have to come from somewhere ,if your fish were treated and i mean all of your fish,every tank then all of your equipment is cleaned you should never suffer from flukes again assuming you buy properly quarantined fish and treat them as separate entities from your current stock.they are living creatures that require a host they arrive on a host and in the closed system of an aquarium they are brought in by new fish or live food (aquatic)in a breeders or dealers environment the spread of flukes can be prolific if hygiene is low the flubenol should deal with flukes it will also deal with a few other potential culprits. your water looks like there should be no problems do you use hma or ro? ther are potentially other harmful phosphates and heavy metals that we cant easily test for good luck
12-12-2007 22:17 by CichlidRouse	hi i use filtered rain water ro water and tap water depending on what tank it is going in (we have over 60) thanks again for all your replies

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