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Viewed: 589 -- Replies: 40 | ||||||||
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| Posted | some questions....... |
| 29-01-2008 20:02 by cokidoke |
hi all from a newby...
i,ve not yet started to keep marine fish yet but its gonna be in the next couple of weeks when i decide on the tank etc.... i've seen a tank (don't know the name) it holds 40 gallon and it comes with a stand, heater, a fluval filter that sits in the cupboard and has a price tag of £280 is that price about right? i think all i need to buy apart from a testing kit is a skimmer and water agitator(if thats the right term?). The same shop also sells the ro water and pre-salted ro water for £5 for 5 gallon and when you take the drum back to get re-filled it costs £2.50, does this sound about right? Also why do people put a layer of something between the tank and cupboard/stand? And is there anything else i need to know before i start spending some money? Thank you in advance. |
| 29-01-2008 20:18 by big cats |
hi
are you new to fishkeeping or just marine? if you are new to fishkeeping then perhaps marines are not the way to go? probably better buying second hand kit from some of the guys on the forum who are upgrading (not me cos i dont do marines) the tank needs a polystyrene sheet between the base and the stand to take up any imperfections or dirt (even a grain of sand can crack a tank). some branded tanks have a plastic lip and dont need this. |
| 29-01-2008 20:53 by telboy |
cokidoke, if you are serious about keeping marines you should do alotta reading on the subject,everything to do with marines is a lot more technical, expensive + time consuming...from the bottom up you will need...stand,sump/filter,heater,tank,sand,skimmer,powerheads,t5/metal halide lighting,live rock...then youll need ya clean up crew ie hermits,snails,shrimp,starfish...then comes fish,+ if you want a reef youve got the corals soft sps lps...ive only been keeping marine for bout a year so im by far no expert...this site is mainly freshwater, there are salties on here but if ya serious try[hope you dont mind webbie?]http://www.reefsuk.org/forum/index.php or http://www.ultimatereef.net/
good luck but for the sake of the livestock and YOU have a gander on those other sites cheers terry aka telboy |
| 29-01-2008 20:54 by telboy |
ps get ya self a 2nd mortgage cos ya gonna need it |
| 29-01-2008 21:11 by telboy |
double ps,left out the ro water + of cause the salt,+ test kits ...if you can get ya head round all this + you do go for it once tank has settled youll find it very very rewarding, youll spend hours looking at rock,amazed by all the little critters emerging from it |
| 30-01-2008 09:30 by stevebrillo |
 lots of doshhhh...but nice |
| 30-01-2008 10:18 by Alan |
Loads of dosh is an under statement.
How much research have you done? If you have never kept fish before it may not be a good idea to start with marines unless you have a huge amount of time and money to throw at the hobby. For a 40 gallon tank the following equipment would be required for a basic marine set up for soft corals. Tank and cabinet/stand the layer between the tank and cabinet is normally polystyrene tiles this spreads the weight of the tank evenly on the cabinet preventing single points of stress that would crack the glass which is very bad. As you have found £280 with a canister filter. You will need a protein skimmer something like the Deltec MCE300 about £140. At least 20 kilos of cured live rock about £190 www.stm-shop.co.uk is the best place I know for live rock. A good quality salt with excellent calcium and carbonate buffering capacity reef crystals is probably the best for this £50 for a bucket that will make about 200 gallons of salt water. A refractometer £40 this is the most accurate way of measuring salinity I wouldn't bother with a hydrometer they are useless. A layer of fine aragonite sand to cover the base of the tank to about 1 inch in depth this will help buffer the ph as it is soluble at a ph of 7.8. Test kits for the following at least (£8-£10 each): Ammonia Nitrite Nitrate Phosphate Calcium Carbonate Hardness or Alkalinity PH Magnesium 2 identical large buckets these are used for partial water changes it is important that you only remove as much water as you are going to add if you are inconsistent with this over time the salinity will change which is bad stability is the key to keeping marine healthy. Lighting this is dependent on what inverts you want to keep I would suggest you keep it simple and go for soft corals as they have a lower demand on calcium and carbonates and are generally easier to keep. Go for either T5 lighting 4 tubes should be sufficient or go for twin metal halides expect to be at least £150 for the T5's and more for the halides. As far as media in the canister I would put a phosphate remover in there and occasionally have carbon in there to keep the water polished and organics low. In addition I would add a UV sterilizer to the system establish the flow rate of the fluval and get the appropriate UV sterilizer for that flow rate. This will keep pathogens low as you cannot use any treatments in a reef tank as they are harmful to inverts. In all you would want to have at least £1,000 to throw at this in order to get it right first time. First thing to buy is a good book and I would consider subscribing to a fish keeping magazine and read the articles on marine set ups so you can get up to date info on how to keep marine. If this sounds like to much to take on freshwater fish are a lot easier and far far cheaper. |
| 30-01-2008 17:41 by cokidoke |
thanks for all the replies.
to answer a few questions i have been reading up on marines for the last couple of weeks,so i have a little knowledge. i have had freshwater water fish before but i was'nt that interested in them. the filter that comes with the tank (the fluval filter) will it have the internal filters in or will it be an empty box so to speak? also ive been told that because i'm mainly wanting to keep marine fish i don't need any special lighting? and when doing fortnightly 20% water changes how do you warm the ro water up before pouring it in the tank? thanks again |
| 30-01-2008 18:17 by telboy |
you need "mixing buckets" you mix ya RO + SALT together, then add heater + small powerhead + leave overnight |
| 30-01-2008 19:09 by dave the wath |
i too am starting out with marines, as funds permit.
recommend reading the following books, they are desinged specifically for us beginners. Saltwater Aquarium Models by John Tullock Your First Marine Aquarium same author Aquamaster Essential Guide to the Marine Aquarium All were bought from local LFS. I would also suggest going into a dark room and lying down until the feeling goes, as the advice above ses you are looking at around 2 grand for starters. But hey good luck.  |
| 30-01-2008 19:14 by cokidoke |
telboy; so does that mean i will need a spare heater and powerhead (whatever that is?) |
| 30-01-2008 19:22 by telboy |
yes ya need spares coki + yes that'll do fine for mixing ro + salt |
| 30-01-2008 19:25 by telboy |
coki, to get a rough idea, go to ebay + type in marine aquarium or go to top of this page click on auction then go to marine reef click + itll bring up various bits n bobs considred a necsesatity[spelling] |
| 30-01-2008 19:27 by telboy |
http://www.aquarist-classifieds.co.uk/php/detail59_89001.php |
| 30-01-2008 19:29 by telboy |
http://www.aquarist-classifieds.co.uk/php/detail59_89001.php nice little nano shame bout hte outrageous stocking though |
| 30-01-2008 19:56 by cokidoke |
another daft question; if you are doing a 20% water change on a 40gallon tank that means you need to mix up and heat overnight an 8 gallon mix, so what kind of container do you use? |
| 30-01-2008 20:17 by big cats |
please dont be offended but marine fish are no less interesting than freshwater and some freshwater are considered more interesting than marines ,but fish are fish and getting them to be interesting is easier with the simpler fish, one krib in community is pretty boring get a pair and things get interesting get them to breed and raise the young and so on, this is how most people build a skill base and we move on some like me go for huge and difficult to house fish others go on to marines ,but we take our experience with us no amount of reading can prepare you for what lies ahead half a dozen unwell marine fish struggling to survive is not just uninteresting for you but unfair on the fish, put a little more bluntly, if you dont know how to carry out a water change you do not have the experience to be responsible for the life or lives of marine fish |
| 31-01-2008 08:00 by daveyd_101 |
the more u look after a tank the more u'll learn and every tank is different... what works for some won't work for others.... the best thing u can do is get to know somebody who has had a tank running in ur area and seek advice that way....
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| 31-01-2008 08:02 by daveyd_101 |
ps. plus have a lot of money sitting around... and be prepaird to loose fish at somepoint...
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| 31-01-2008 08:57 by Alan |
With the information available these days losing fish should not be seen as inevitable.
One observation on marine keeping since the use of live rock it is know actually easier to keep a small reef than a fish only set up. The problem with a fish only set up is nitrate and the fact a larger skimmer will be needed as non reef fish produce more waste equally the non reef fish tend to be bigger and have more specific needs than reef fish plus a 40 gallon tank is unlikely to be sufficient for a fish only set up. Just as an out line question what freshwater fish did you keep and how succesful were you? I am also concerned that you do not understand some very basic terminology such as power head. If you had no experience of fish keeping that would be fine but you say you have kept fish before. One thing I forgot to add to the shopping list is actually power heads and they would have to turnover the total tank volume of water at least 20 times per hour so you are looking at a flow rate of at least 3,642 litres per hour. Do you know any one personally that keeps a marine aquarium? If so use the knowledege they have and learn from any mistakes they may have made. If you are determined to go ahead with the marine tank can you give an indication of the fish you would like to keep as any set up should be tailored to the fish, inverts, corals, that you wish to keep not the other way round as that is always a compromise. Test kit wise I would use nothing other than salifert test kits I have found all others to be unreliable and generally difficult to read as the colours on the colour charts tend to all be virtually identical salifert are by far the best test kits about. The other thing what is your total budget? All biological filtration should be carried out by the live rock hence my advice to only put phosphate removers and carbon occasionally in the canister filter the skimmer will also remove much of the waste from the tank. |
| 31-01-2008 18:57 by Fry Lover |
Alan a very quick sub-plot please to this thread. Are you pretty sure on Salifert, as i am fed up of other kits for the reasons you mention. I found a seller on e-bay, the Salifert kits for ammonia, nitrite and nitrate are only £5.95 + P&P
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| 31-01-2008 19:40 by telboy |
hellesden barn aquatics eh? |
| 31-01-2008 20:16 by cokidoke |
i'll start off by answering big cats worry with new starters to keeping fish! are you generally a negative person or are you just worried about other peoples fish dying? (rant over)
To answer alan's questions, my wifey really kept the tropical fish and it was only a small tank which we only had for a year or so, so i only have minimal knowledge of "fish". I dont know anyone personally that keeps marine fish which is one of the reasons I want to start keeping them. i'm only wanting to keep a couple of "easy to look after" like clownfish and yellow tang from which i can gather are hardy fish, i would also like to keep some hardy coral too, coral that does not need special lighting. You also ask about budget, if i pay around £280 for a tank which includes filter,heater and other small bits like temp. gauge, £75 for prizm skimmer, powerheads £60, live rock £140,pre salted ro water to fill up tank originally £30, hydrometer £10, test kits £50, substrate £20, salt £20, then spare powerhead and heater for water changes £20, air pump and air stones £20 = £725. Which is alot more than what i originally thought but obviously thats not all to spend straight away as a tank would need to be left a while so i would'nt need things like rock, spare powerhead and heater etc. Is there anything ive missed off the list? |
| 31-01-2008 20:50 by telboy |
coki, i dont think bigcats was having a pop, just trying to make you realise just what goes into keeping marine ie time money effort + of cause the care of livestock...if you were to ask me seriously should you start up marine keeping as a complete newbie to fish keeping id have to say "no not yet" in my honest opinion i think you should start off with some easy to keep trop's,learn the ins + outs ie what things are + what they do,water cycle, tank maturing,etc etc...the needs of your livestock always comes top of the list...imagine this scenario! you spend around a £1000 on a marine setup inc all those lovely fish + wee beasties,because of your lack of knowledge all the fish + beasties + corals die, you get disheartened, decide to sell up then you realise you wont get no where near what ya paid for the tank etc the wifey is giving ya grief,all because you rushed into it... sit back,read up,learn, get experience, after a while then go get yaself ya dream marine setup...all the best terry |
| 31-01-2008 21:17 by cokidoke |
thanks for your opinion terry, it will be considered. |
| 31-01-2008 21:54 by Ed |
Coki i have just put a marine aquaria up for sale £160,it includes a metal halide,turbo floater skimmer with ocean runner pump,sump with bio balls and the stand and hood where made by a top joinery firm so thats a whole lot of kit for starting off for £160.
 |
| 31-01-2008 22:45 by telboy |
ed you moved yet mate? |
| 01-02-2008 10:55 by Alan |
The prizm skimmer should be avoided they are worse than useless go for the deltec MCE300 or the TMC V2Skim 400 hang on version. The deltec is the best option though.
As a list the following will be needed for what you want. Lighting: Most softies require at least some light you have the choice of the following 6 T8 flourescent tubes or 4 T5 flourescent tubes or 150 Watt metal halide lighting. Skimmer I would recommend the deltec mce300 it is very easy to set up pretty much plug and play. Aragonite sand for a 1" depth of substrate. 20 kilos of live rock this is the biological filter. A UV sterilizer to rig up to the external canister filter this will help keep disease and parasite levels low. Phosphate remover to go in the canister filter from day one. Some stream powerheads to circulate the water such as Tunze or seio or wave or hydor take a look on www.stm-shop.co.uk or atlantis aquatics to get an idea of what is available. You will wnat to have one in each top back corner. As far as setting up the tank goes once you have filled it to the 90% full mark with the premixed RO water you are intending to use you will need to make sure all the equapment works and then add the live rock to the system. If you use cured live rock which you should this is like putting a mature filter straight on to a new tank. At this point leave the tank running with an 8 hour photo period for about a week after this consider adding some grazers to the tank be careful to keep them all reef safe these are vital in order to manage a reef tank succesfully and they will manage detritus build up and algae. From about 2 weeks providing all test results are good you can start adding some softies I would suggest in a 40 gallon tank you go for mushroom anemones button polyps and the like these are very easy to keep and if you mix a lot of different species it can give a fantastic display. Fish wise consider the following species as possibles but not all of them could be stocked as it would be far to many: Pyjama wrasse bananna wrasse neon chromis/green chromis avoid all other damsels and chromis as these are the only peaceful ones. pyjama cardinal fish Dwarf angel species of particular interest should be the coral beauty. The only possible tangs would be the yellow tang or the scopas tang all others are 2 big even these are pushing it in a 40 gallon tank. neon gobies are fantastic interesting little fish and easy too keep a small group and chances are they will breed they also carry out cleaning duties. mobile inverts: Pencil sea urchin if you get a lot of coralline algae growth they keep it under control. Cleaner shrimp Blood shrimp sand sifting starfish blue linkia starfish red starfish (be careful of the species) As far as grazer opt for either snails or hermits don't mix them. If you opt for snails go for cerith nassarus turbos and any other snails you can get your hand on. If you go for hermits go for dwarf blue legs as these can be safely mixed with medium sized turbo snails. As far as introducing stock this should be done over about an hour to 2 hours depending on the sensitivity and size of the stock inverts all need about 2 hours to avoid osmotic shock small fish generally adapt more quickly. To do it right firstly make sure that the stock you are introducing is not in water that has a copper trace ask the shop about this if inverts are in the same water as the fish in the shop there won't be a problem copper is lethal to invertebrates. If there is no copper to be concerned about float the bag in the tank and add a small amount of water to the bag every 5 minute about 2 egg cup fulls at a time. Do not release the inverts or fish until the water in the bag matches the salinity of the tank. If the fish are kept in water with a copper trace you will need to do the aclimatising away from the tank so the fish can be netted out and then released in to the main tank then the copper contaminated water can be discarded. I'm keen not to over do the info so I am keeping this as basic as possible everything I have posted is very much the basics. |
| 01-02-2008 11:07 by Ed |
In about 3 weeks terry,i have had enough of these solicitors they talk absolute xxxx,the last ones could not even tell us what they were charging for but the misus still paid up even after 5 attemps for a breakdown still no answer absolute conmen. |
| 01-02-2008 11:54 by telboy |
ed, if ya need a hand mate just bell me or contact via this forum! |
| 01-02-2008 13:04 by Ed |
Thanks terry your a gent. |
| 01-02-2008 13:33 by telboy |
glad someone thinks so mate! ps hows them younguns doing [moorish] |
| 01-02-2008 15:09 by cokidoke |
cheers Alan.
whereabouts do you live like Ed? |
| 01-02-2008 15:22 by telboy |
ed lives in finchley[north london],just up the rd from me...if i had the dosh id bite his arm off for that setup at that price, and his a genuine all round nice helpfull chap too, makes ya sick! |
| 01-02-2008 15:48 by cokidoke |
shame im in the north east (nr middlesbrough) |
| 01-02-2008 16:30 by -Rob C- |
Webbie might tell me off for this, but if your needing to buy things local try http://northeastaquatics.com/forum/ |
| 01-02-2008 18:41 by big cats |
cokidoke , i am generally an optimist but given the level of your questions i made comment, i wish you luck ,i believe more experience would ensure you get the enjoyment you want without the pitfalls, my comments are meant for your own good they are not in any way nasty, take a trip to the tropical team in gateshead speak to tom he may be helpful |
| 01-02-2008 19:05 by cokidoke |
big cats, apologies for taking your comments personally, and if im ever in gateshead i may just pop in, cheers. |
| 02-02-2008 12:22 by Ed |
Terry i could not believe some of the calls i had concerning the marine tank,so i have decided to throw in a 2 bed flat ,the jeep and my brothers motor aswell and i suppose peeps will try to knock me down again. |
| 02-02-2008 12:26 by Ed |
Sorry forgot about you cokidoke just aim for the biggest tank you can get and kick off with damsals then gradually your water quality will build then you will post a question asking how do i get these *** damsels out without desroying the rockwork but i will leave you to post that all the best ed.
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| 02-02-2008 13:31 by telboy |
give it to me to look after ed till ya move! ill let ya have it back honest! |
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